The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferrett's Journal - Real-Life Levelling
January 9th, 2007
08:40 am

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Real-Life Levelling
[info]montykins wrote about the fun he was having in World of Warcraft, and then mused upon the reasons why levelling in real life - which is far more useful - isn't nearly as fun as levelling in WoW. Which is something I've thought about before.

The answer that Mister Monty gives is that there are no numbers in real life, and that's definitely a part of it. I don't know why we're all so trained to think of numbers as an important thing - is it cultural conditioning or just something innate? - but birthdays (an arbitrary number-rolling) are nearly always a big thing, and we love the New Years' Eve, and there are tons of communities devoted to measuring progress. How many pounds did you lose? How many books did you read? Did you run 500 miles this year? Do you have your black belt yet?

Videogames have tapped straight into this lust to get bigger and better numbers. And, as the Montmaster notes, it's a lot more satisfying to go, "I went from 25 to 30!" than it is to say, "I'm now some immeasurable amount better at quilting than I was the day before!"

The other problems, however, are time and accounting. The time thing's a big one; I can level up three or four times on Diablo II in an afternoon (and get the requisite number of Happy Points to distribute), but I can spend a whole day programming and not be sure that I've progressed at all. There are some days where I'm just refactoring or tweaking the way something displays on a page, and I know damn well I'm not learning a thing.

Videogames give us a quick fix of level power - that's why they're so insidious.

The other aspect, accounting, is also troublesome. Videogames monitor your progress transparently and automatically, and they tap you on the shoulder when you've vaulted to the next level. Thus, you can spend all of your time concentrating on the game, looking at the status bar only when you have some down time. In real life, however, you're the only one monitoring your progress - and thus to level up you must, annoyingly, do the math and checking to verify that you're getting somewhere. And even then, you can level up without the immediate (and surprising) DING! of gratification.

You can, theoretically, do a little objective levelling, but that usually involves fees and outsiders getting in. For example, there's a PHP Certification Test by Zend that I could pass to prove that I am at least some level at programming PHP. But that would involve a lot of extraneous studying to make sure that I'm passing their merits, and the time and effort required to go to the test hall and spend half a day filling out the test form. Compare that to what I want, which is to be sitting in my room hammering on my IDE when a thunderous voice shouts, "YOU HAVE LEVELLED!", telling me that it's time to do a little dance, and you'll see how bad that is.

I think that's why I want to publish a novel so badly. That's a guaranteed level.

Being a lover of systems, I think there are probably ways to solve both the time and measuring problems (and to minimize the bookkeeping issues). If I had sufficient time, I'd probably ask around and come up with a Programming Levelling Guide - which would be several hundred quick and easily-verified aspects of programming, each of which could be learned in under an hour. Each of the stages would be split into several levels, ranging from the ludicrously simple Level 1 tasks ("Write a 'Hello World' program that prints the words 'Hello World' to the screen") to the intermediate ("Write a useful object-oriented program that utilizes the Observer pattern") to the truly difficult ones that might require a four-hour commitment (or even a full eight hours, but no more than that). But it would have to be quick, because the whole point is that you should be able to make measurable progress in a single afternoon.

Each level would consist of probably twenty of these tasks, so it would take awhile to get to become even a Level 1 programmer, but you could measure your progress daily. Once you finished all of the tasks in each level, you'd have beaten the level. Furthermore, each additional level would be sure to go back and build upon previous tasks (or even repeat them outright) just so that the important bits would become further wedged in your head.

The important thing would be to make sure that you could never ever use this on a resume. The problem with a lot of external tests (particularly in the computing field) is that they're designed to be impressive to employers, which requires a certain level of rigorousness in its attempt to measure quality, which means that you wind up checking for a lot of measurable things as opposed to actual quality. The whole point of levelling is that it's to inspire you to be good. If you wanna hack the system and try to make a power run through all of it? You won't learn much, and you'll remember even less, but sure, give it a whack. But ideally, it's self-driven because you want to improve yourself.

I'd probably make it open-source, just to get as many eyeballs in as possible. And then we could all joke about where we were as we crawl through the levels, facing the hideous Recursion Question of Level 5 that trips up a lot of novice programmers. Discussing the Uni-Hack, a single program which, when written, would satisfy all the requirements of all levels. And the people who'd completed it could help out the lessers while writing the dungeons of the other levels.

This is just for programming, of course, but you could easily adapt it to whatever self-improvement program you're working on. The Belt system of martial arts already does this, to some extent; they just test you on all of them at once. But it wouldn't be too hard to adapt it to quilting, or editing, or pretty much any job or hobby you could think of (though some would obviously be harder than others). The whole system is just having a bunch of tiny tasks, each easily doable and self-measurable, that when accomplished in sequence will build actual skill in whatever you're trying to do.

I'm too lazy to do it. That would require levelling up in levels, which is a bit much. But if anyone else wanted to spearhead the attempt, I'd definitely pitch in.

After all, I do love being a dungeonmaster.

(Tell me I'm full of it)

Comments
 
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From:[info]andrewducker
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:18 pm (UTC)
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Your system of small chunks of easily measured knowledge is actually how I think the education system should work. Each part would feed on previous parts (you could draw a tree of them all), and there wouldn't be grades for each of them - either you'd understand it, or you'd keep at it until you did.

One of your examples doesn't work for me, by the way:
"Write a useful object-oriented program that utilizes the Observer pattern"
because you can't measure usefulness. I'd prefer a choice of different things to do. "Write an OO program utilizing the Observer pattern that either (a) keeps track of who has borrowed all your CDs (b)organises the class parrot-cleaning rota or (c) updates your default friends filter whenever someone posts a picture of their cat."
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From:[info]scifantasy
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:41 pm (UTC)
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Each part would feed on previous parts (you could draw a tree of them all), and there wouldn't be grades for each of them - either you'd understand it, or you'd keep at it until you did.

This idea scares me.
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From:[info]zane314
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:21 pm (UTC)
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This is one of the reasons I like weightlifting as exercise- how much weight I can benchpress or bicep curl is a solid number that I can measure and watch increase.
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From:[info]rintheamazing
Date:January 9th, 2007 04:58 pm (UTC)
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I think most fitness things fit nicely into this category.

I can run x miles, or do y crunches, or whatever.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) Expand
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From:[info]xiphias
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:21 pm (UTC)
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For what it's worth, I believe the idea that "hey! numbers! Those are quantifiable!" thing is why people who accumulate great wealth do so.

In practical terms, it is never going to make a bit of difference to your life if you have ten million dollars or ten billion. So why would you bother to get more? Because it's a number, and it's quantifiable.

"I have $10^10, and you only have $10^9. I am therefore ten times better than you."

Whereas, what can I say? "Oh, yeah? Well, I make a martini that is some unquantifiable amount better than the martini that you make. . . "

I mean, I'm willing to bet that I'm a better bartender than Bill Gates is. (Although I only give myself even odds against Warren Buffet. I kind of think of Warren Buffet as the Chuck Norris of the finance world. I'm pretty sure Warren Buffet could beat up a T-Rex, just as I'm pretty sure that Chuck Norris could do a leveraged buyout of a corporation. They're not the MAIN things in their skillset, but they could probably do them anyway.) But I know for a FACT that Bill Gates has more money than I do. That's quantifiable.
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From:[info]zane314
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:24 pm (UTC)
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Whenever I think about "That person has more money than I do." I always have this nagging question of "Well, yes... but do they have more _cash_ in their wallet right now?" If you ignore credit cards and checkbooks and investments and the like, it's quite possible that you can have more money on you than the rich people.

It's a completely meaningless comparison, but it's always amused me to think about.
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From:[info]bookkeeper
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:31 pm (UTC)

Speaking of levels

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My own job, military linguist, shows off the potential benefits and pitfalls of a leveling system. Every year, linguists take the Defense Language Proficiency Test and we have a scale from 1 (Able to point and say "I want that") to 5 (the equivalent of a William F. Buckley).

On the one hand, the oral exam gives you a point every year that allows you to look at yourself and see where you are as a speaker: This year I can argue about proper foreign policy in Israel, last year I couldn't. On the other hand, when you make 5th level in a game, you won't ever lose that level (barring D&D level drain), while, back in the real world, unused skills deteriorate rapidly. Thus, folks who come out of basic language training as high-speed linguists can find themselves deep in a hole if they don't practice those skills on a regular basis.
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From:[info]zoethe
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:50 pm (UTC)

Re: Speaking of levels

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This is definitely a problem in a lot of real life skills. After almost a decade of not quilting, I look at some of the stuff I taught and wonder, "now how is that done?"
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From:[info]valarltd
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:38 pm (UTC)
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I totally get it.

Publishing a short story is a level.
Publishing a story in a print anthology instead of an e-book is a level.
Publishing a novel is a different level.

In contrast, at work, the only leveling I can do is "Today I didn't grind any gears on a downshift." "Today I got into all my docks with only one pull-up each."

And there are no levels in parenting. I'm learning this as I deal with a teen, a preteen, a tween and a kidlet.
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From:[info]xiphias
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:44 pm (UTC)
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I've argued that parenting is pass/fail:
"Is my child currently on fire?" No=Pass.
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From:[info]vrax
Date:January 9th, 2007 02:57 pm (UTC)
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My instructor always said there are only two ranks in the fighting arts - can, and can't. Belts are meaningless, as any true practitioner will tell you. Ask [info]jackofmany tonight, for example.

Belts are mostly used a as a reward until you're hooked on the practice and then you realize that they mean nothing and cast them aside. Shit I got one my my black belts in about 40 seconds.

A different instructor was sharing space with mine and asked one day if I was interested in taking lessons from him, too. I said "let's see, wanna spar for a minute?" and we did. Forty seconds and one armbar tap-out later he awarded me a black belt, presented it to me right then and there. I threw it out later that day.
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From:[info]kizayaen
Date:January 9th, 2007 03:23 pm (UTC)
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I don't know why we're all so trained to think of numbers as an important thing - is it cultural conditioning or just something innate?

They are a very visible and easily quantifiable indicator of progress. If you have numbers, you can (as I am wont to do) easily calculate that "I am 38% of the way to my next level, have spent 4 hours getting that far, and thus should expect to spend approximately 6 hours finishing up. At the current average xp-per-kill rate, that translates out to another eighty-nine kills. This can be expected to net me approximately four and a half gold and two rare items, based on historical averages."

Of course, some people say I obsess over such things too much.
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From:[info]sydneyrodriguez
Date:January 9th, 2007 05:36 pm (UTC)
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I do the calculate to see how far I am from the next level, but I don't touch the drop thing... Yeah, I might get two rare items, but are they useful to me? If their only use is vendor trash, then I say no, because vendors don't usually pay much for such items. Then, you've got to consider what you're going up against and their chance of dropping a useful item.

The experience thing is cake...the rest is just too much work... :S
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From:[info]of_little_note
Date:January 9th, 2007 03:41 pm (UTC)

Something Completely Different.

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Have you seen http://goblinscomic.com/? This is not spam, just a recommendation.
From:[info]noumignon
Date:January 9th, 2007 04:00 pm (UTC)
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Suspiciously on-topic XKCD.
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From:[info]vrax
Date:January 9th, 2007 04:25 pm (UTC)
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No doubt.
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From:[info]draconisuk
Date:January 9th, 2007 04:49 pm (UTC)
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I think that's why I want to publish a novel so badly. That's a guaranteed level.



That's not levelling. That's multi-classing. And has appropriately stringent requirements...
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From:[info]kmg_365
Date:January 9th, 2007 05:20 pm (UTC)
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And, as the Montmaster notes, it's a lot more satisfying to go, "I went from 25 to 30!" than it is to say, "I'm now some immeasurable amount better at quilting than I was the day before!"


While Oblivion uses numbers for levelling, I have no idea what my numbers are. However, when it told me "hey, you now know how to repair magic items," I was completely jazzed. More so than I would have if it said "ding...you went from 25 to 30 in armory skill."

Maybe we should all look to Oblivion.

Write a useful object-oriented program that utilizes the Observer pattern

In this hypothetical scenario, I would take out subjective qualifiers like "useful."

The problem with a lot of external tests (particularly in the computing field) is that they're designed to be impressive to employers, which requires a certain level of rigorousness in its attempt to measure quality, which means that you wind up checking for a lot of measurable things as opposed to actual quality.

I honestly couldn't give two and a half shits about a person's certifications. We've had Microsoft Certified Developers and PhDs interview with us and they didn't know even the most basic concepts. The former generally just crammed for the test, so they didn't understand the principles, and the latter knew the theory but didn't know how to implement it.
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From:[info]merle_
Date:January 9th, 2007 07:31 pm (UTC)
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Word. When reviewing resumes, I actually count MSCDs and other certifications as a negative. (I don't mind PhDs at all, so long as they have sufficient real-world experience)
From:(Anonymous)
Date:January 9th, 2007 05:40 pm (UTC)
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This is just for programming, of course, but you could easily adapt it to whatever self-improvement program you're working on.

I can just imagine it:

"Ding. You have satisfied your partner using only your feet. You are now level 8."
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From:[info]grantisu
Date:January 9th, 2007 05:41 pm (UTC)
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Whenever you feel like leveling up (in a particular programmer sub-class; "PHP Guru" is worlds apart from "C Hacker"), work on one of these:

Ninth annual ICFP Programming Contest (Technically over, but still accessible. Watch this to cheat a little.)
The International Obfuscated C Code Contest (Always fun, and it's a programming exercise just to understand past entries)
Quines (A requirement to reach level six)
Esoteric Languages (Maybe this involves a prestige class...?)
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From:[info]spc476
Date:January 9th, 2007 07:40 pm (UTC)
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But where would I fit, not knowing what an “Observer Pattern” is, but having written my own object-oriented language? (I found it to be a fun diversion from real work in college)

And the people that can use Fast Fourier Tranforms (I'm not exactly sure what that is, nor when one would use it), the Van Wijngaarden-Dekker-Brent Method, Cholesky Decomposition, Vandermonde Matrices and Eigenvectors have reached a level I can't even comprehend, but would be more than lost programming in PHP.

Oh, and esoteric languages? How about Hope, False, VIth, Alf, Cat and Lua (all of which I have some passing familiarity with, and one I wrote).

From:(Anonymous)
Date:January 9th, 2007 06:07 pm (UTC)

Martial Arts Tests

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The thing about the martial arts belt system is that like the SAT or ACT it often indicates your proficiency with what your school teaches you, but it does not show how well you would do in a in a real situation. Usually a black belt would do fine, or any intermediate belt, but you never know until it happens but the price of failing is too high so it is a test every one wants and doesn't want to take.

In all the schools I have been in the teacher says you can test only when they are sure you can pass, but still, even in my case I am nervious. If I was as confident as my instructor I would relax and not work hard but I practice as much as I can for the week or two I have leading up to the test. I am nervious and do things over anbd over until I dream of it at night and it is committed to muscle memory. When the test comes I am so scared I don't know wether to puke, soil my pants or run. I just have to trust my muscle memory because I keep blacking out during the test and have to trust the teacher to tell me how I did. I just hope I get the place furthest from the judges and try to concentrate on doing everything as strong as I can, to yell as loud as I can, and try not to look as I feel. Usually I do fine but it never changes. There are few things I am more afraid of than belt tests.

I have never been attacked. Have no idea if I could pass that real life test or fail miserably. Tests rarely measure what is truly important but passing one sure feels good, or is that just massive relief because I didn't soil my pants? I absolutely agree with you.
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From:[info]vrax
Date:January 9th, 2007 06:35 pm (UTC)

Re: Martial Arts Tests

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Another thing crazy Freddie, my instructor, would do was take us drinking and have other guys that we didn't know attack is in the parking lot. After something like that you know where ya stand.

He always said the time you're most likely to get jumped is when you're out, and if you're out and you party then it's usually when you've been partying.

So if you were a drinker he'd have you come over and get wasted then do a session and so on. We had blast at the memorial day barbecue/parking lot brawl.

Note to anyone who cares, it takes roughly 10,000 reps for something to truly be committed to muscle memory in terms of becoming second nature as a response. So, you may want to start drilling like crazy before the two weeks leading to a test.
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From:[info]gfish
Date:January 9th, 2007 06:11 pm (UTC)
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Maybe this is why I'm such a dilettante. The difference between knowing nothing about a subject to knowing anything at all is a definite level-up. Beyond that it gets all fuzzy.
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From:[info]mistapotta
Date:January 9th, 2007 07:17 pm (UTC)
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I recently had to take the Computer Science 8-12 exam to prove that I'm a competent Computer Science teacher to the state of Texas (despite that I've helped over fifty students pass the Computer Science I and II AP tests the past few years.)

I'm still waiting for that government agency to tell me I've leveled.
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From:[info]merle_
Date:January 9th, 2007 07:29 pm (UTC)
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Actually, I would argue that a day spent refactoring and tweaking does teach you something. It may not seem as glitzy as learning a new pattern, but you become that much better at what you do. It's like shaving another .001 seconds off of your 100m sprint time.

There have been pushes in the game devlopment community to move away from numbers and the "bam! I'm suddenly stronger!" levelling system. However, this push is restricted to developers. Whenever this has been presented in focus groups, it is shot down. "But how will I know if this long sword is better than that flail if I can't see to-hit and damage ranges?"
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From:[info]montykins
Date:January 9th, 2007 11:34 pm (UTC)
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This is just for programming, of course, but you could easily adapt it to whatever self-improvement program you're working on.

I think Merit Badges might be a good system to adapt to everyday life.
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From:[info]wolfieboy
Date:January 10th, 2007 03:02 am (UTC)

Re: levelling

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I like the bonus points signifying e-mails from co-workers saying that I've really helped them a lot...
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From:[info]azurelunatic
Date:January 10th, 2007 05:32 am (UTC)
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But as programming evolves, the levels would have to evolve and condense to fit the difficulty levels of modern programming.
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From:[info]larrythelabrat
Date:January 10th, 2007 08:32 am (UTC)
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I think one of the primary difference between leveling in a game and leveling in real life is that you seldom loose the level in a game.

I know that I can play Diablo II for a few hours to level and get items, and then leave it alone for months, and it'll be where I left it when I'm done.

But in terms of fitness, if I want to push myself to get to a new level, I know I'll have that level only as long as I keep pushing myself to stay there. I take a week off, and I've lost it.

Even in Diablo II, there were situations where you could loose experience, but you didn't loose the level. In effect the punishment was just putting the next gratification a little further away. But in general, you knew exactly how far along you were till your next reward, and you could be stable there without effort. To me, that's the insiduous and unrealistic part of video games.
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From:[info]pinwiz
Date:January 10th, 2007 09:34 am (UTC)
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I'm so there right now. My RL dilemma is trying to cram enough Pre-Calc back into my brain to pass a Placement Exam for my eventual return to school (TM). I've only got so much time to train and level (study) before I have to go into the Boss Fight (the exam). I expect that I'll be able to do it, but it does make me nervous.

And I'm trying to get my WoW Priest from 54 to 55 before the weekend at the same time. It kinda fits, thematically.
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From:[info]gizbot
Date:January 11th, 2007 12:41 am (UTC)
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You do know about the belt system for Java? It handles the testing of 'what is your core competancy', and can be as useful as the Python Puzzles or such. I always am surprised when all thoughts of motivation are stripped when teaching a subject and how little a game structure is needed to bring substantial motivation back. The site is at http://www.javablackbelt.com
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From:[info]gizbot
Date:January 11th, 2007 09:15 am (UTC)
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This seems to fit the subject:
http://xkcd.com/c189.html
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From:[info]sylphslider
Date:January 13th, 2007 07:36 pm (UTC)
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I'm a college student and I feel like every time I finish a semester, I level. :P
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