The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferrett's Journal - Thoughts From A PBS Catalogue
October 17th, 2002
03:44 pm

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Thoughts From A PBS Catalogue

(100 shouts of denial | Tell me I'm full of it)

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From:eyelid
Date:June 5th, 2008 05:09 pm (UTC)
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but abortion is never an easy choice, and anyone who thinks it's not traumatic for anyone involved (and yes, especially the fetus) is an idiot.
Anyone who assumes that they know how everyone else reacts to abortion is an idiot.

your experience isn't everyone's.

Furthermore, how a person reacts to abortion is by no means a measure of how good of a person they are.


Every other option should be taken before you go that final step. Every option."
You didn't go "every option." Why it is ok for you but not for others?
Who are you to judge, frankly? Why is it that it's ok for you to be "made sick" by someone else's reaction to abortion, but we should all respect YOUR choice?

I'll tell you what makes ME sick - hypocrisy.
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From:audrawilliams
Date:June 5th, 2008 05:31 pm (UTC)
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Word!
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From:theferrett
Date:June 5th, 2008 05:41 pm (UTC)
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your experience isn't everyone's.

No. But it's most people's. If you think the vast majority of folks out there are going, "Woo hoo! I gots me pregnant! I'll go scrape it off m'boot like it's a cock-a-roach!" then I'm pretty confident in saying you're mistaken. Even if it doesn't encourage lifelong trauma, it generally means a very bad weekend, some heavy decisions, and a potentially dangerous medical procedure that costs money.

You didn't go "every option." Why it is ok for you but not for others?

We looked into adoption, and unfortunately it wasn't something she felt comfortable doing financially or medically. We thought about raising the child ourselves and having it before we realized we would be poor parents and it would be raised in poverty. We explored every option we had at the time before choosing this, and I'm still not thrilled about it.

You don't have to respect my choice. I'm not necessarily certain that I do - I just don't want my experience being used as "evidence" that nobody should ever have an abortion or that everyone should.

So if you still think that's hypocrisy, go right ahead.
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From:new_world_smurf
Date:June 5th, 2008 07:06 pm (UTC)
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We had to get an abortion, of course.

Um ... no, you didn't--more correctly, no, she didn't. THAT'S what ticks me off, when it's said that one "has" to get an abortion or one "has" to have the baby. You're trying to imply you had no choice. You did.

And the fact that you think that incest isn't nearly as bad as an accidental pregnancy? The antis have taught you well, young padawan.
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From:theferrett
Date:June 5th, 2008 07:12 pm (UTC)
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Actually, dipshit, the very point that I had given someone that low a right to hate me was the issue that made me feel bad about things. At no point did I say that accidental pregnancy isn't "nearly as bad" as incest, and I hope you choke on a bucket of shit for putting such words in my mouth.

We did have a choice. The "of course" was meant ironically. Not that I'd expect you to get that, since whatever link you schmucks are coming from today seem to encourage some sort of group mentality.
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From:eyelid
Date:June 5th, 2008 07:42 pm (UTC)
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dipshit, the very point that I had given someone that low a right to hate me was the issue that made me feel bad about things.

Wha? what "right"? That whole assumption is so whack. If my dad hated my husband for having once knocked me up at an inopportune moment, resulting in my having an abortion, I'd look at him like he had three heads. Instead, my parents adore my husband because he is a good and awesome person who loves me and is good to me (and everyone else). But then my parents are not child molesters, so yeah, their priorities are a little different from your girlfriend's father's.

An unplanned pregnancy is hardly a crime, nor is it worth hating anyone over. It's an unfortunate accident that happens to more than half the people in the US at some point.
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From:theferrett
Date:June 5th, 2008 08:00 pm (UTC)
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An unplanned pregnancy is hardly a crime, nor is it worth hating anyone over. It's an unfortunate accident that happens to more than half the people in the US at some point.

Actually, it's a rather stupid accident that could have been prevented. As noted, we were pulling out - because we didn't like condoms. And that stupidity, combined with the fact that he believed (as I do) that we were snuffing out a potential life created from nothing but our own dumbness and irresponsibility, well...

Maybe you don't get that. I suspect you see that fetus as nothing more than irritated tissue.
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From:eyelid
Date:June 5th, 2008 08:56 pm (UTC)
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Actually, it's a rather stupid accident that could have been prevented.
All accidents could have been prevented. It's hardly a horrible moral failing to have an accident. Again, unplanned pregnancy is a very stupid thing to hate someone over.


combined with the fact that he believed (as I do) that we were snuffing out a potential life
And yet, like you, there he was, seeing the abortion through. I wonder what he did to his daughter afterwards. I wonder if you ever thought of that.


Maybe you don't get that.
It is true that I have a lot of difficulty following the delicate moral sensibilities of people who rape their own children. I guess you found in him a kindred spirit with completely understandable emotions, but I just can't.


I suspect you see that fetus as nothing more than irritated tissue.
In fact what I see is the woman. That's what I care about.

Remember, there was a woman involved here? You've written her out of the story as much as possible, but I'm pretty sure she was there. Who was she? What did she want? How did she feel? What was she thinking? What were her hopes, dreams? What did you and her father do to her, say to her? These are the things I wonder.

The answer is, who knows? All we get above is how TheFerrett feels, what he wanted and felt. Oh, and the child molesting father. His feelings are considered and honored as totally reasonable. We clearly know who the important people are in this story - you, the child molesting father, and the fetus, who is scrupulously remembered (and assumed to be a son, surprise).

But when I read your story, what I see is a woman, probably a girl, sitting forlorn, sandwiched in a clinic between the father who raped her and the boyfriend who told her he couldn't afford a child but maintains that abortion is murder. She's the one my heart goes out to. She's the one I want to help.
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From:theferrett
Date:June 5th, 2008 09:03 pm (UTC)
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I'm sorry. In the future, I'll be sure to write up all my adventures according the feelings of other people.

I'm sure if I had done that, you'd go, "Yes, Ferrett! I take your word as gospel that this is how your girlfriend felt. I certainly won't be accusing you of eliding, forgetting, or changing any details to suit yourself!"

And of course, in that wonderful world, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Because I'm sure given the subject, even if she had agreed 100% with me on this, you would have assumed that I had ascertained her state accurately, and wouldn't have raised any questions about that. You wouldn't have insinuated that I'd been able to report on her own emotions every bit as accurately as mine.

Good to know. Because you weren't even there, and somehow you know what happened better than I do. Clearly, you're the sort of person who can routinely discuss the internal emotions of everyone around you, because you can sense them, two decades ago, from a distance.
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From:eyelid
Date:June 5th, 2008 09:25 pm (UTC)
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I'm sorry. In the future, I'll be sure to write up all my adventures according the feelings of other people.
Wow, you're right - how could I ever have expected you to find the emotions of your girlfriend, going through an abortion, to be relevant to this story? Or that you would possibly know what her feelings were?


you would have assumed that I had ascertained her state accurately, and wouldn't have raised any questions about that.
I assumed you reported her molester father's state accurately. Which, BTW, you didn't seem to have any qualms about reporting. I guess his feelings were understandable/important, while hers weren't?


I'm sure if I had done that, you'd go, "
It's sort of irrelevant, isn't it? I mean, you'd never have spoken about her feelings. It never would have occurred to you. It never did occur to you.

You can say what you want, but you know that is true. You thought it was important to report her father's feelings, so you did. You didn't think it was important to report hers. She's a cipher. She's the unimportant vessel carrying the important fetus.


You wouldn't have insinuated that I'd been able to report on her own emotions every bit as accurately as mine.
And why is that so outlandish? I can report on my husband's emotions re: my abortion as accurately as my own - and did, when I shared my own abortion story. That's because I actually cared about them. And about him.


Because you weren't even there, and somehow you know what happened better than I do.
*amused* first you imply that you can't say how your girlfriend felt (just how her dad felt, I guess). Then you imply that you know how she felt and I don't. Which is it, I wonder?
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From:rustedxemotions
Date:May 23rd, 2014 04:04 pm (UTC)
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... How can you possibly answer how another feels? Get a life.
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From:new_world_smurf
Date:June 5th, 2008 08:07 pm (UTC)
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This man thought I was scum. And he had fucked her when she was eight, all the way through until she was eleven, and continued to feel her up on visits until she was finally sixteen and put an end to it....

And he hated me.

And he had a right to.


I didn't. You did. Sorry, you lose one internet and any shred of sympathy that I had for you with that response. Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood.

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From:theferrett
Date:June 5th, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC)
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Very good. You can quote. I'm glad you've mastered the arts of Copy and Paste.

Next, master the art of actually, you know, reading.

Now. Show me where I said that what I did was worse than what he did.

You can't. G'wan, analyze, but you see what you want to see, what's not there. You won't find the words, "And thank God that everyone who has a right to hate me is automatically made better than I am!" Because they don't exist.

And I don't feel like having your idiotic words stuffed into my mouth today, thank you. I'd rather have words from people who a) don't arrive with agendas firmly packed, b) not mentioning the obvious group that they got themselves whipped up from as if to pretend that you're not all a gang, and c) someone who's smart enough not to twist everything like a toy balloon to meet the decision you've already managed.

I don't like it when the Bush administration did it. You? Not quite as bad as the Bush administration, but you're not winning any intellectual points today.
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From:moonwolf23
Date:February 1st, 2012 03:52 am (UTC)
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You know, from someone who can be an absolute bitch in an debate, you guys are a little over the top.

Look

It's a story from personal perspective. Agree, don't agree, but who the hell do you think you are to judge, preach, or otherwise act like an absolute ass, over what must have been a soul wrenching time for him?

Do you honestly think your helping or illustrating the grace of the Pro Life movement? No, you are coming off like a sanctimonious pig.
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From:eyelid
Date:June 5th, 2008 07:30 pm (UTC)
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No. But it's most people's.

Really? how do you know? You've been really involved with women who have had abortions, have you? You've worked in a clinic, maybe, or on a post-abortion hotline? You've taken a statistically valid survey? Or, maaaaybe... you're just making assumptions?

I've run abortioninfo for FIVE YEARS. I've seen every reaction to abortion from absolute misery to absolute EMPOWERMENT. I know what's common and what isn't. And I know that your statement "anyone who thinks it's not traumatic for anyone involved (and yes, especially the fetus) is an idiot" is in fact itself idiotic.


Even if it doesn't encourage lifelong trauma, it generally means a very bad weekend, some heavy decisions, and a potentially dangerous medical procedure that costs money.

Abortion doesn't cause that. UNPLANNED PREGNANCY does, regardless of how it ends.


We thought about raising the child ourselves and having it before we realized we would be poor parents and it would be raised in poverty.

So that's the extent of "every option"? You didn't have the optimal amount of money, so you considered it ok to do what you now proudly state is "killing your only child"?

Let's be real. If you were really committed to the "every option before abortion" rhetoric (let alone the "abortion is murder" rhetoric) that you're now saying everyone ELSE should adhere to, there's no way you'd've gotten an abortion. I have friends who were single parents as teens. It's quite possible. You were hardly desperate. I will further do you the courtesy of assuming that if you really DID think you were murdering a child you would not have done it no matter what.

Abortion was probably your BEST option. That doesn't mean it was your only one.


You don't have to respect my choice.

This isn't about respecting your choice. I support your - or more accurately, your girlfriend's - right to have an abortion whenever she feels that is best for her. What's more, unlike you, I don't judge. Whatever your girlfriend's reasons were, she knew a lot better than I what is right for her. I've had an abortion myself. Unlike you, I don't throw stones in my glass house.

So bottom line is, this has nothing to do with me "respecting your choice." It has to do with me not respecting your CONDEMNATION OF OTHERS WHO MAKE THE SAME CHOICE. You sitting on your high horse, saying sure, I had an abortion, but unless you feel the same way about it as I did, you make me sick and you're a disgrace to the pro-choice movement.

That's hypocrisy, yes, it is, and it's a betrayal of every other person who has an abortion. All for your own self-aggrandizement. You step on them to raise yourself up. You're the guy who uses affirmative action and then says affirmative action is bad. You're the guy who uses welfare and then says everyone else on it is a deadbeat. You're the priest having sex outside of marriage while preaching against it on sundays.

And I'm the person who sees what your kind of hypocrisy does to real women getting an abortion.

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From:theferrett
Date:June 5th, 2008 07:56 pm (UTC)
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It has to do with me not respecting your CONDEMNATION OF OTHERS WHO MAKE THE SAME CHOICE.

What fucking condemnation?

You know, I'll talk to you when you're on the same planet as I am. Because at no point did I say that anyone made me sick because they didn't feel the same way that I did, or that they were a "disgrace to the pro-choice community." This is a personal essay about something that happened to me, and how I felt about it, and at no point within the essay do I make any sort of global statement about abortion.

Frankly, you make me sick by trying to twist that into something else to further your political agenda. And yeah, the fact that you do that? It is a disgrace.

And then, when someone takes this essay and starts posting it in pro-life communities as "proof" that abortion is bad and nobody should ever do it and I clarify my stance to them in order to say that not all, but MANY people are sickened by people who treat abortion casually, and most don't. And that is true.

Frankly, you wanna bring your baggage here, go right ahead, but I'm not going to go, "Oh, wow. You're right. That thing you made up that I said? Wow, I'm wrong."

So to hell with you and your judgments that somehow, I'm pro- or anti-anything. I've had more than a few friends have abortions, and I have discussed this essay with people who've worked down at the clinics.... But I doubt that matters to you. What you want is to be right. I suppose what I should say is the norm to make you happy is to agree with you and say 99% of women who have an abortion think nothing of it, and they get it done, and it's as casual and easy for them as throwing away a hamburger at McDonald's.

If you believe that? Go right ahead. You'll find evidence.

In the meantime, you can screw yourself because I never said anything about other people having abortions - and I dare you to find one instance in the stories shared here where I said, "Wow, you sick fucker, how dare you kill that child? After all, abortion is wrong!"

I didn't. And would not. It's a personal matter, and though I might not agree with every abortion I'm not going to tell anyone they're evil for doing it.

I will further do you the courtesy of assuming that if you really DID think you were murdering a child you would not have done it no matter what.

Was I murdering a full child? No. It wasn't the same as smashing a baby on the rocks. Was it snuffing out what I believe to be a human life, something with the potential to be my child? Yeah. It was. And I helped with the decision to do it, and I arranged the finance, and I agreed with it being done.

It was the right decision for us in the end. But it came with a cost, and that cost was the child. And that cost is exactly the thing that concerns me. Again, I get the distinct feeling that I'm supposed to crumple now under your logic and say, "Oh, gosh! You're right! It wasn't a child! I didn't feel that way at all!"....

....But no. I do think it was murder, and a sad one, and a small one, and perhaps one that shouldn't have been done at all. And the best I can do is to look that fact in the eye, unpleasant though it may be.

We looked at all the other options. In the end, we chose the one that we thought was best for all concerned, including a child that we judged wouldn't be happy. That decision was, sadly, final. If our goal was to pump out a life no matter what, then no, I suppose, we made the wrong decision, but our goal wasn't to preserve life at all costs, but rather to make the decision that would lead to the best quality of life.

You don't always get to know what the right decision would have been. As it is? I can live with it.

You are, however, correct on one thing:

Abortion doesn't cause that. UNPLANNED PREGNANCY does, regardless of how it ends.

I'd agree with that. But strangely enough, I wasn't talking to people who made that distinction when they were cutting and copying my words for an agenda I didn't agree with.
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From:eyelid
Date:June 5th, 2008 08:29 pm (UTC)
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Was I murdering a full child? No.
Really? Cause your bio says this is "The day I killed the only child I ever had." So, which is it? Whatever's convenient?


Because at no point did I say that anyone made me sick because they didn't feel the same way that I did, or that they were a "disgrace to the pro-choice community."
Really. Because here's what you said BEFORE:
but you folks should know that pro-choicers who treat it cavalierly, as if it's just a piece of bacon that's being removed, make a lot of the rest of us sick.

I guess by "the rest of us" you meant, uh, not yourself? What a fascinating use of the English language. "Us" meaning "not including me."


I do think it was murder, and a sad one, and a small one, and perhaps one that shouldn't have been done at all.
You know, this kind of profession is very strange to me. Because I just don't find anything "small" about murder.


If our goal was to pump out a life no matter what, then no, I suppose, we made the wrong decision, but our goal wasn't to preserve life at all costs, but rather to make the decision that would lead to the best quality of life.
Again, you are deliberately avoiding the point. This isn't about whether your choice was right. Again, I just don't make those kinds of judgments. Frankly I'm sure I would have made the same choice in your position. But what this is about is your hypocrisy. You said:
Every other option should be taken before you go that final step. Every option.

...that's the standard you say people should adhere to. any deviation from that "makes the rest of us sick." Yet you didn't adhere to it, did you? No. You didn't "take another option" though now you admit you had some.


Frankly, you wanna bring your baggage here, go right ahead,
lol. MY baggage?


had more than a few friends have abortions, and I have discussed this essay with people who've worked down at the clinics....
Definitely this is a statistical sample.

You know, I wonder if it ever occurred to you that your attitude might tailor the stories you get? If a friend had an abortion and found it to be a positive experience, would they feel safe telling you, given that you've implied that people who don't suffer after an abortion make you sick? _I_ wouldn't tell you, if I cared what you thought about me.


Frankly, you make me sick by trying to twist that into something else to further your political agenda.
yeah, that must be my motive, because arguing with you on your LJ is totally doing tons to further my political agenda. *rolls eyes*
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From:theferrett
Date:June 5th, 2008 08:38 pm (UTC)
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but you folks should know that pro-choicers who treat it cavalierly, as if it's just a piece of bacon that's being removed, make a lot of the rest of us sick.

Hence the phrase "a lot." Is that everyone?

Do you actually read what's there, or do you just randomly toss out the parts you don't like?

You didn't "take another option" though now you admit you had some.

I did look at those options. They weren't good enough, so I didn't take them. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware I was dealing with the sort of asshole pedant where I'd have to say, "No, I'm sorry. I didn't think about selling the baby off to slavers, which would solve our financial problems" to make it clear that the options have to be valid ones that actually work for you.

If I have to draw a distinction between "good" and "bad" options that serve the needs of the man and woman and potential child, then frankly you're either a) too dim to grok any sort of meaningful distinction, or b) just looking to bitch a lot and feel superior.

It could be a). That's a, you know, option. But then we move on to this:

Definitely this is a statistical sample.

Just as yours is. OMG, YOU'VE RUN THIS COMMUNITY FOR FIVE YEARS! How statistical. How awesome.

And clearly, your own attitude wouldn't encourage a variety of stories, either. The good news is that your sample is superior to mine! You win, because you want to be right. You don't cite surveys, you don't cite studies... No, when backed into a corner, you immediately start dissecting my experiences, without ever considering that everything you have said to me is subject to the same conditions.

Are you any better? Oh, I suppose we could get into a dickwar and compare pure numbers, but... Every community and person self-selects the experiences it finds. Including you. And yeah, I'm sure you're non-judgmental - I'm seeing that utter lack of judgment right now.

But it doesn't matter. As I suspected earlier, you want to be right. You don't want to debate, you just want to prove points. Go for you.

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From:eyelid
Date:June 5th, 2008 09:14 pm (UTC)
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Hence the phrase "a lot." Is that everyone?
oh, I see. So really, what you meant to say there is "other people find it sick when pro-choicers believe that a fetus is just a piece of bacon..... but uh, not me, I'm down with that viewpoint"? You are actually trying to say that you weren't incorporating yourself into that condemnation?

Instead of Ferrett you should call yourself Weasel. Do you seriously believe your own bullshit?


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware I was dealing with the sort of asshole pedant where I'd have to say, "No, I'm sorry. I didn't think about selling the baby off to slavers,

Y halo thar strawman! That was totally your only other option, right?


Just as yours is. OMG, YOU'VE RUN THIS COMMUNITY FOR FIVE YEARS! How statistical. How awesome.
Uh, yeah, I think that five years worth of experience is a pretty good sample. Better than you talking to a few buddies, for sure. But you are right that it is pretty awesome :)


And clearly, your own attitude wouldn't encourage a variety of stories, either.
lol. My own attitude has encouraged every kind of story there is. abortioninfo is an entirely safe space. Don't believe me? Go look at it. The stories are archived. I've got nothing to hide, because I'm right. Also, I run afterabortion, BTW. Another safe-space community. No judgments, no pressure, no expectations, only support.


You don't cite surveys, you don't cite studies...
I don't really need to cite anything other than my own experience, since your statement was that everyone feels a certain way after an abortion, and I didn't. This automatically shows that your statement is wrong.

Furthermore, you can easily look at the communities yourself. As for studies, why is it that I'm required to produce studies to refute YOUR unsupported claims? however, studies are readily available from the Guttmacher institute (see, e.g., here.)


As I suspected earlier, you want to be right.
lol. totally unlike you!

look, it's obvious that you're unable to admit to your own words. You're so just loving that moral high horse and your own martyrdom. Crawl off the cross, my friend, someone needs the wood.

You may now have the last word :)
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From:rustedxemotions
Date:May 23rd, 2014 04:09 pm (UTC)
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I find it so awesome that The Ferrett didn't feel the need to have the last word. It was probably decent enough letting you go out as an absolute ass with absolutely no further point to prove because you seriously refuted his comment "As I suspected earlier, you want to be right."

Eyelid, you're an asshole confused for a feminist.
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