* - Unfortunately, I can't decry the process of "asking repeatedly," mainly because it's the only stimuli a lot of women respond to.

I can. If they say no, why not take it at face value? This, in turn, trains THEM not to say no if they mean "try harder". And it's taking some responsibility for yourself rather than putting the burden on someone else.

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Damn good point.

I'm going to do that from now on.

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Except, you know, try to sound like less of a dick about it. ;p

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I'm getting the dickness out of my system ;)

In real life I shall just say "fairy muff, see ya laters" and bugger off.

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If it gets them what they want, then I can't blame them for using an efficient system.

It's sort of like the way some people consider it rude to call to find out if the company got your resume and to ask if you'll get an interview. It may well be rude, but sometimes it gets you a job.

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If it gets them what they want, then I can't blame them for using an efficient system.

I can and do fault people for doing the thing that gets them what they want without taking into consideration the needs/wants of others. Getting what you want, no matter what, is pretty anti-social.

It's sort of like the way some people consider it rude to call to find out if the company got your resume and to ask if you'll get an interview. It may well be rude, but sometimes it gets you a job.

If you consider it rude, don't do it. If the hiring manager considers it rude, you probably oughn't. That it can get you what you want can't be the sole justification for the appropriateness of an action.

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Rudeness is diminished or strengthened by the person committing the act. The way you do it matters most. And people who have would normally think it rude to do something usually compensate enough to make it acceptable and thus doing something what they find rude makes it actually not all that rude. (There are always somethings no matter how the delivery is that will always be considered rude)

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If it gets them what they want, then I can't blame them for using an efficient system.

A rapist's credo.

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Possibly, if you take it all the way to the end result and ignore the fact that I said quite clearly that women should be allowed to say no and not be touched against their will. This is not "OMG, HE THREW HER TO THE GROUND AND FUCKED HER" but rather "he kept asking until she agreed to it." If someone talks you into a bad deal, they're assholes - but you're an idiot for agreeing to go with it despite your reservations.

Nice attempt to throw around hot terms in order to try to annihilate dialogue, though.

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See, I see it as the spam analogy above--or the girls who use emotional manipulation to get attention from their boyfriends. I know these girls; I know the guys it works on. I think the guys are putzes for putting up with it, but I can *certainly* blame the girls for doing it, whether or not it works.

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Hallelujah! It's really irritating to me when women are made responsible for men's actions, which is precisely what blaming somebody for reinforcing another person's behavior is. (Notice the comment tree upthread where misia is "cautioned" by another LJ user -- not theferrett, I hasten to add -- for escalating the situation by being too nasty. First women aren't firm enough in their refusals, then they're too harsh.) That there are women who only respond to repeated propositions is irrelevant; they aren't entitled to attention, and neither are the men who think that they might get some if they ask the same person for the 20th time just because they've worn somebody down in the past.

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It works both ways. I've had a male friend indignantly respond to the whole No Means No campaign to indignantly ask me what he's supposed to do when women sometimes use "no" to mean "maybe".

My response was, "Well, I guess they don't get any then."

If somebody wants to be a dick, I don't see any reason to reward them for it.

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If somebody wants to be a dick, I don't see any reason to reward them for it.

Yes, no kidding. And I personally have no patience for a woman who habitually uses "no" to mean "maybe" and then bitches about how she never gets any dates.

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And to clarify, I don't mean that I think saying "no" when you mean "yes" is good policy -- IMO, it's game-playing nonsense. I just don't think the women who do so are responsible for the guys who decide they're the rule and treat all other women accordingly.

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I've always taken 'no' at face value myself. If they can't be an honest adult, screw 'em. Or rather, don't.

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Save that you get generally reasonable people like theferrett, who even if they don't advocate it, then certaintly doesn't discourage the practice because it's "an effective strategy". I don't think that kind of endorsement is acceptable, nor is the practice of "try, try again". Respect that first answer. If they "didn't mean it", it's on them to tell you.

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You didn't see the part where he blamed women for 'reinforcing mens' bad hehavior', did you?

Victim blaming squared!

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I saw that, especially in some of his comments, but I wasn't sure how to effectively bring that point across, especially given the failure of others to do so in threads above this one.

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who even if they don't advocate it, then certaintly doesn't discourage the practice because it's "an effective strategy".

Yeah - if you're a rapist.

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That's basically my point, yeah.

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Rapist? Wasn't he talking about nagging and begging? How did that become rape?

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Yes. Or if you're a salesman who figures out that high-pressure sales work. Or a telemarketer who figures out that calling a hundred people will get one profitable sale. Or a hot girl who decides that shaking her ass will get her free drinks at the door, and to hell with feminism when you can tee-hee.

I know, I know, only rapists do things that work. It's a terrible life.

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You're not being clear. Doesn't advocate what? Doesn't discourage what? What kind of endorsement is unacceptable?

What on earth are you talking about?

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Ha ha! I've actually told a guy, "You're on the right track. Try harder." :-)

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1.You hurt me.
2. Never ever ever talk to me.
3. You never even gave two shits in hell about me.
4. At all of the people in this world who have hurt me in my life, YOU hurt me the worst of all.

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