You're right, it's not that simple. There is work in taking racism (or other discrimination) out of your life.

But it is possible.

And life is *much* better without it.


And FWIW, I'm a Chinese American, and damn proud of it. I've grown up with race as a factor in my life, so please don't lecture me on what I can and cannot know. It is entirely possible that my experience is just as deep as yours.

As for growing up black in modern America, I doubt I'd do that even if I had the chance. From the outside, looking in, I see very little promotion of positive, self-reliant, strenghening models or messages within the black community. I see the black community as dysfunctional, short-term and self-destructive. I certainly would not raise my children in such a community.

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but lemme guess-- you aren't a racist or anything! that's just *how those people are*. because, of course, if it wasn't, you'd know... right?

gotcha!

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=bzzt=

No points for you.


IT'S HOW THAT COMMUNITY IS PROMOTED TO THE REST OF AMERICA.


You, my friend, need to read more carefully.

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No points? I'm crushed. Because that is exactly what i was hoping for, so much.

"Promoted"? I am not quite sure what exactly that means, but i'm going to take a stab and guess it has something to do with imagery and information that is circulated about black people in the mainstream media. Which, um, is really not something black people have a very big say in, and never really have for a variety of reasons. I'd post some links about this, but... well.

Maybe rather than my reading more carefully, you need to make your points more carefully? Cause like, i could sprinkle myself in a bucket of goofer dust and i would still never figure out you were talking about 'promotion'.

One last thing: dont call me 'my friend'. Its not like we are, or something.

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As for growing up black in modern America, I doubt I'd do that even if I had the chance. From the outside, looking in, I see very little promotion of positive, self-reliant, strenghening models or messages within the black community. I see the black community as dysfunctional, short-term and self-destructive. I certainly would not raise my children in such a community.

On behalf of the black community (since you and your kind love to believe one of us represents the ENTIRE group), lick us where we fucking pee, you hypocritical assmunch.

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As I said elsewhere:

"Your assumption that he is a racist because he doesn't see the current black community as healthy is the kind of short-sighted thinking I find embarrassing. You can attempt to correct him with examples of good black role models that are widely shown, but to go, "YOU DON'T LIKE US? RACIST!" is to promote the bullshit idea that to be non-prejudiced, you must love everything that blacks do. Which isn't something I'd want people to do for white people."

His viewpoints are uncomfortable, and perhaps short-sighted... but rather than saying, "Wait, I think you're wrong" you've immediately hopped on the racist button in an attempt to shut down a viewpoint, then accused him of a hypocrisy that does not exist. That, I'm not fond of. Especially when the only people calling nams are, um, you.

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They are much more than short sighted. They are racist. Denying the facts does not change the words he spoke.

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Hmmm.

This is a difficult situation. I actually think that you're both right.

Criticisms of "the black community" should not be shut down. And yet, and yet... his comment was racist, in that it indulged in inappropriate stereotypy. There is no one "black community". His comment was bigoted as I would be if I spoke of "the gay community" having a scarcity of role models. WTF? The gay community? Which one?

I'm not an American, and I hate what is presented to me of "urban" gangsta thug stupiditity. But I don't delude myself that that media-created pap constitutes "the black community"; I think that such delusions are indeed racist, even if innocently so.

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"you and your kind love to believe one of us represents the ENTIRE group"

Wanna define "you and your kind" so that *you* aren't the one who's guilty of the same?

Anyhow, I believe if you had half a brain, you'd have gone through the evolution of the discussion, and realized that I deal with individuals as such.

That said, the most visible blacks, quite frankly, suck as role models.

But as you claim to be able to speak for the community, why couldn't you prove me wrong with some good, positive examples?

Or, as the community is wont to do, will you continue to hide behind the race card?

Fucking pathetic.

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The Asian community is not the black community. The Black community binds together so tightly because in the past, we were not allowed to bind at all and there were willful efforts to take away our culture.

Chinese Americans--most Asian Americans--came over to America together and willingly for the most part. Their marriages were not invalid or unrecognized. They were not sold and bought like cattle. They didn't have the pleasure of waking up in the morning and hearing that their husband/son/wife/daughter/parent was sold off and they will probably never see them again. They can trace their bloodline and know what region of the Asian continent they come from. All I can say is I'm African--I can't even say if I am from west, east, north or south Africa. That would be like saying, "I'm just Asian, I don't know if I'm Chinese or Korean or Thai or Indian."

As for positives, you cannot understand if you have not been black. Even if a black person despises everything I do and I despise everything they do, there is still an unndercurrent of reliance on each other due to skin color. They still may step up for me just because I am black and in trouble and I may do the same for them. If some other black person hears that I am black, they already have some bond with me through that history we share. Blacks have informally adopted children that would otherwise be bounced around in foster homes and have an extended family that smears blood lines. I can be dropped in the middle of downtown Hosuton tonight, and I have no less than three different family lines I can rely on to pick me up and take care of me. We take care of our own, and just because one might be a different type of black tribe doesn't mean that will despise them (for the most part at least, in America, because we don't have tribe lines at all)If you see no positives in the African American community, you are willfully ignoring them.

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If you see no positives in the African American community, you are willfully ignoring them.

absolutely. people like that who insist on blathering "ew, black people" rarely manage to take any sort of personal responsibility for their ignorance of the complexity of black communities in the US or black history, preferring to concentrate on their superiority (?). it's all been laid out in derrick bell's "faces at the bottom of the well," and countless other writings.

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If you see no positives in the African American community, you are willfully ignoring them.

Untrue. For one thing, that assumes you have a unilateral idea of the word "positive," and for another you assume that the positives you see are the ones that he gets to see. But rather than attempting to say, "So what do you perceive as negative in the black community?", you've tried to shut him down with the old standpoint of, "You don't know us unless you are us," which is a nicer way of saying, "Unless you're in our club, your opinion's useless." Which is, really, every bit as racist and exclusionary as white thinking. And it looks like you brought along a few friends, which I'm also against.

There are opportunities to open up dialogues, and the first two paragraphs are great, but the third one is the killer. You do not have to walk a mile in someone's shoes to point out that they're wearing sandals on a mountain hike. Their opinion may not be as informed as it could be, but to write them off before you even hear why they believe what they do is an extreme error.

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He said I see the black community as dysfunctional, short-term and self-destructive. Precisely where does that statement leave room for discussion? I'm wondering why you keep insisting we're in the wrong, and feel the need to attempt to show us the "error" of our ways, yet you have no problem with his blanket statements. He's getting called on his words, no one is reading anything into what he said, and how we feel about his words? We have a right to those feelings. Just because it makes you uncomfortable does not make the anger wrong.

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I am probably harsh in saying that there are things other people don't understand when you are not black, but it's true and I'm not going to roll over and say that it's okay to tell me how to be my own race. The cold and dirty fact is, a great many things are not understandable from the outside perspective--be it college traditions, racial bias, certain hobbies, or various other things. And being told that I can just climb out of my skin and move on with it, and that race does not affect me if I don't look at it, is not helping anyone--especially those affected by race.

I don't care what I do or don't do. I am a dark brown person, and there will be things that I will experience that other people that don't have dark brown skin will not and cannot experience. Yes, you don't have to wear my shoes to tell me not to wear sandals. But if you've never even seen a cowboy boot off a television or outside of a store, you can't tell me that you know what I need to do to take care of them when I've been wearing them since I could toddle.

I don't bring people. I show paths and let them decide to go if they wish. As for writing off, being told that there are no positives in the black community and that people are glad to not be black because we are self destructive is not a compliment and not open to dialogue.

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Like most people of color, I've struggled to come to grips with my race, so when you say that race is *hard*, I believe you. In contrast, religion and sexuality were easy -- I got religion squared away in my teens, and sexuality figured out in my 20s. But my race? That was a mess. It wasn't until my 30s that I finally made peace with my race and found a balance I could live with.

What's most interesting to me is how people move in and out of different aspects of their community, redefining it as their lives progress.

What I find bizarre is how the finest black people I have ever met really don't do the mass black stuff. They just don't do the stuff that's promoted to the masses. They have selected their lives, and their self-selections overlap with mine, so their values are similar to mine.

BTW, I find *you* to be very cool, intelligent, and reasonable. Unlike some others in this discussion, you're keeping it together, and I appreciate that. I'd like to friend you, if that's OK.

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The reverse is true for me. I knew my race from the time I was old enough to see my skin color.
Religion? Not till college. Sexuality? I just got that where it should have been years ago two falls ago, and came to terms with what I should have been able to accept long ago.

Most blacks don't do the mass black stuff that everyone says they see. Just like white people or Asian peopel or Hispanic vary, black people vary. I have parts of black culture that piss me right the fuck off. It's just that, like Christianity and being white, the loud minority is fucking things up for everybody. Walking away won't teach them any better. You don't walk away from a child behaving badly and leave them in the store, you stay there and you tell them to cut that shit out, and you might have to swat their ass when you get them home.

Go ahead. I don't damn people on race or sexuality either--considering what I've been through and who I am, it's be hypocritical of me.

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"The Asian community is not the black community."

One good thing about the black community is that they have numbers, and so their story is told. Their group history is fairly well known, even though the individual stories are lost.

But what many aren't aware of is how many Chinese, when they came over, had to cut nearly all of their ties back to the mainland. To pass immigration, many had to memorize whole new life histories for themselves and relatives, ever watchful that someone might catch them in a like and have them deported. Many other Chinese left in the wake of the rise of the Communists, and were forced to cut family ties that went back generation upon generation, lest those left behind suffer retribution for their leaving and not returning. With the turmoil from the Cultural Revolution, and the mass resettlements and so forth, in many ways, the Chinese are starting anew as well. So for many Chinese, they may know what their ancestral home is, but are otherwise disconnected from it. Only the newest immigrants can trace well. Considering how vital family is among Chinese, losing those links to their past is very sad.

As for the positives, I wish that the information you've shared with me could be more broadly shared with others. The problem is that this isn't something that is well-publicized outside the black community. Instead, we see guys like Kobe and Al and Snoop, and decide that isn't for us or our children.

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One good thing about the black community is that they have numbers, and so their story is told. Their group history is fairly well known, even though the individual stories are lost.

Your entire participation in this is clear proof that too many people know next to nothing about black people in this country, honestly.

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Yeah, Asians have had it pretty hard, I'd never say otherwise. Look at adoption for a painful example. A white couple walks over to Korea or Thailand or someplace like that and grabs one of the abandoned children over there because they can't get the shiny white baby here in America (all they have to pick from are the older ones and the not so pale ones). They start "being open minded" and "teaching culture", picking up cultural things, clothes, food, language, and think they know what it's like to be "Asian." But let that kid grow up and say, "Hey, I'm not wonderfully grateful for all of this, and I've got some complaints" and they might just get indignant. What the shit? I can't believe people expect that child to "appreciate" what they've had done for them, with the "saving" them from the "poverty" of Asia.

White man's burden, you know, gotta save those funny eyed people or those weird looking darkies or something. Just like the Christianity burden to save those heathens, which resulted in a truck of food being taken out of the tsunami affected areas because the natives didn't want to hear from some nuns how they were all going to hell.

I refuse to let the media speak for me. If I don't open my mouth and say, "Fuck you and your attempt to speak for me simply because I'm black," no one else will. And I use my life to say that hey, stop acting like everyone is out to get you. Not only is that bullshit, that's no damn excuse to go out and start sniping on other people.

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given your profound and deep awareness of black people in this country, please, tell us what you think we should do to remedy these deep terrible problemswe have. i mean, you know, on behalf of the children of my family, who clearly need your wisdom to guide them...

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as an educated black woman i can honetly say that your stupidity makes me a little bit sad inside. turn off MTV, go outside & actually *talk* to a black person. if you can refrain from saying anything overwhelmingly offensive & racist i bet you'll learn that some of us actually made it out of the ghetto, if we were ever in it.

with that said i hope you run into some asian gangbanger & he shoots off your testicles. one of you is most certainly enough.

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"as an educated black woman"...

You can't even find the Shift key on your keyboard, lack the ability to read critically, nor make critical judgement. Yeah, you just go on with your hasty, ignorant assumptions because they make you feel better.

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Ah. And you've met every single Black person in America, right? Which of course qualifies you to make blanket statements about "the Black community."

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*This* is crap.

Learn to discuss intelligently.

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