In The Grand Scheme Of Things, It’s… Actually Pretty Relevant - The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferrett's Journal
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In The Grand Scheme Of Things, It’s… Actually Pretty Relevant
A friend of mine emailed me because the girlfriend he just moved in with has turned out to be a slob. Not a Hoarders-style, dead-cats-piled-in-the-closet slob, but “Hey, I just opened this Amazon box and I tossed it on the table when I was done” kinda messy.
And it’s driving him nuts, all this clutter. He needs a made bed and a clean counter in order to feel comfortable, and his girlfriend is perfectly happy as long as she can scoop out a space somewhere to watch Doctor Who on her laptop. He’s stressed all the time, and snappish at her, and he feels bad because this is his problem, and he doesn’t know how to deal with it. So he asked me for some advice.
And I asked, “So why doesn’t she realize she’s doing something wrong?”
And he replied, “Because she isn’t actually doing anything wrong?”
No.
If she’s doing something that’s making you feel stressed and claustrophobic and unwelcome in your own home, then she is doing something wrong.
Now, the important thing is to remember is that cleanliness is not an objective wrong. If the girlfriend was living on her own, and she was happy nestling up in a big ol’ pile of crumpled McDonalds bags, then I say more power to her. But in this case, she’s chosen to live a tandem life with you, and acting as though you’re doing her some good by swallowing back all this stress is a perfect lie.
They tell you that in the grand scheme of things, the little stuff doesn’t matter. I’m here to tell you that quite often, the little stuff matters way more than the big things. Because, yes, maybe once a year on Valentine’s Day I can cover you in roses and bring you to a big dinner and tell you I love you… but if every morning you wake up to find I’ve pissed all over the toilet seat and I never even notice how disgusted that makes you, then you’re getting the wrong message three hundred and sixty-four days out of the year.
And it’s not just messiness. If you’re sensitive about your big ears and I think it’s cute to mock them, that’s gonna hurt you on a regular basis. If you get worried sick when I stay out late and don’t call, then you’re going to be worried when a single text could make you sleep better. If you really hate the way I leave the bedroom door open so the cat gets in and rubs her allergy-inducing fur all over your pillow, then you’re going to be sneezing wildly on a regular basis.
The little things matter.
Gini and I did a lot better as a couple when we acknowledged the concept of “silly.” As in, “Something can be silly, and trivial, and still hurt your feelings.” And if you’ve got a good partner, sharing that silliness will usually not get you the reaction of, “Oh, how silly! You’re silly!” but rather, “Crap, I don’t want to hurt your feelings!”
So the solution is not to eat your pain and push forward bravely, silly though your needs may be. The solution is to say to her, “Look, I know it’s silly, but all of this clutter makes it hard for me to be comfortable. I feel like this isn’t my home – and it isn’t, because my home wouldn’t have me kicking aside old shoeboxes to make my way to the bathroom. So I’ll pick up, because I recognize part of this is my quirk, but can you also show me you think about me by putting your dishes in the sink once in a while?”
And you negotiate. Because there’s a certain irony in my buddy asking me this – me, the guy with three empty Amazon boxes stacked on his table as I write this. I come from a family of hoarders, and it drives my wife nuts. And our house isn’t as clean as she’d like it, ever. That’s her compromise. But I pick up enough to make it not a hostile environment for her, and I do probably 400% more cleaning than I’d ever do if I lived alone, and every time she sees me cleaning out the pile of books in the bathroom, Gini knows that’s my way of showing love.
We meet in the middle.
Now, my buddy’s girlfriend doesn’t mean to do anything wrong! But “intent” is not a magic wand. A partner can hurt you or stress you out unintentionally. The trick is that if you’re still hurt by it, move that to the intentional zone. Habits die hard – I don’t mean to just toss the Amazon box to one side, I just don’t think not to because HEY, NEW BOOK! – so when Gini says, “Sweetie, I know you don’t mean to, but this really bothers me” in a kind tone of voice, it makes me remember how much I love her and oh shit I shouldn’t do that.
Even now, I put the Amazon box into the garbage unguided maybe one time out of three. But she recognizes that’s literally an infinite improvement from the “never” times I’d do it if I lived on my own. And I’ll sometimes get the “oh crap” realization when I see the box, and clean it up later unasked.
But the first step in my buddy solving his problem? Pushing past this harmful idea that the things that stress him out are trivial. It’s good that he waited a few weeks, sat on the idea, so as to not bug his girlfriend with every irritation. That’s awesome. But eventually, if you’ve sat on it and it’s still causing you enough stress that you feel like texting a friend to ask, then it’s time to open up.
There’s no shame in sharing. It’s not silly. It’s the first vital step in melding both of your lives together, and unless you can be honest you can’t start the long progress of compromising effectively.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have some boxes to throw out.
Cross-posted from Ferrett's Real Blog.
This entry has also been posted at http://theferrett.dreamwidth.org/350610.html. You can comment here, or comment there; makes no never-mind by me.
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| | ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/109082541/810751) | | From: | jfargo |
| Date: | November 14th, 2013 02:54 pm (UTC) |
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I believe this perfectly sums up one of the large reasons why a previous relationship of mine didn't work; small things that bothered me were put aside as "silly" whereas if something bothered her I would work to fix my behavior.
It's also why this relationship I'm in now works so well: We know when we're being silly but it still bothers us so we mention it to each other and each try to work toward one-another's happiness. I call this the 30-second-rule. If you can take 30 seconds to text me and let me know all is well or you're swamped at work but thinking of me, that goes a long way for me. And conversely, if I can take 30 seconds to (to use an example from a previous relationship) toss a can of soda in the freezer twenty minutes before you arrive so it's extra cold the way you like it, I know that goes a long way for you.
Other things might not fit into the 30-second-rule, like how clean you keep your home, but often it takes much less effort than one would think to bring about a huge positive reaction for the other person. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/124811184/1018640) | | From: | cakmpls |
| Date: | November 14th, 2013 03:42 pm (UTC) |
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If she’s doing something that’s making you feel stressed and claustrophobic and unwelcome in your own home, then she is doing something wrong.
At the top, you said he moved in with her. If that isn't the case, ignore this comment, please.
If it IS the case, how could he not have already known that she does not meet his standards of tidiness? Did he move in with her expecting her to change the way she lives?
Why should his preferences trump hers? She probably prefers to live the way she does just as strongly as he wants her to change. If it was HER place first, why should she have to change? Why doesn't he have to change? Well, it doesn't matter either way.
One can move in with someone without having a good idea of what they live like, particularly if - like Gini and I - you met on the Internet. Even then, it could well be the sort of thing where the person cleans up before company comes over, or you didn't mind it in small doses but living like this all the time kills you, or some other explanation.
Even so, your comment is riotously terrible for relationships.
Why should *she* have to change? Because her partner is upset by this course of action, and will be stressed more, and it'll probably cause more fights. Even if one is a selfish twat, the objective benefits of that should be obvious.
Regardless, if the first concern is "Why should *I* have to change?" instead of "Wow, I don't want them to be upset, what we can we do about that?" then frankly, a selfish git like that doesn't deserve to be in any satisfying relationship.
Relationships aren't about "I WIN I GET EVERYTHING." They're about compromise. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/124811184/1018640) | | From: | cakmpls |
| Date: | November 14th, 2013 05:13 pm (UTC) |
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But what if she will be upset at having to live completely differently, and will be stressed? Why doesn't he change his preferences?
There often seems to be an automatic assumption in relationships that the person who likes things the way they are should change to accommodate the person who doesn't like them--even if the changed way will be one the first person doesn't like. Why is that?
There also seems to be a default that clean, tidy, organized, etc., is the correct way, and the one who prefers--not tolerates, but activiely prefers--less rigid surroundings is the one who should change. Why is that?
Given that I have been in a successful relationship for 34 years, I don't think I need relationship advice from you. There also seems to be a default that clean, tidy, organized, etc., is the correct way, and the one who prefers--not tolerates, but activiely prefers--less rigid surroundings is the one who should change. Why is that?
No. What I said was this: "So I’ll pick up, because I recognize part of this is my quirk, but can you also show me you think about me by putting your dishes in the sink once in a while?”... followed by "We meet in the middle"... and then, " It’s the first vital step in melding both of your lives together, and unless you can be honest you can’t start the long progress of compromising effectively."
What I said was that both partners would have to change. Not one, but both. And why? Because if one partner's unhappy, generally you should work to change that. Which involves compromise, or perhaps finding out that you can't compromise, in which case you decide to tolerate it or leave.
Given that I have been in a successful relationship for 34 years, I don't think I need relationship advice from you.
You may not need relationship advice from me, and in that case don't take it. But I'm free to say that what you're saying is actually bad advice that probably wouldn't work for a larger percentage of people. You may feel free to disagree.
![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/124811184/1018640) | | From: | cakmpls |
| Date: | November 14th, 2013 05:43 pm (UTC) |
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I didn't mean you made that the default, but that our society seems to do so.
I do disagree. I think that "Get into a relationship on the assumption that you can change the other person" is one of the most destructive approaches one can take. It's a pet peeve of mine--people who decide "This is the person I want to be with" and then start trying to change that person.
If he wants the bed made and she doesn't care, he should make it and shut up. If he wants clean counters and she doesn't care, he should clean them and shut up. But if she actively doesn't want the bed made, one of them is going to be unhappy, and if she actively wants to have stuff out on the counters, one of them is going to be unhappy. I suppose they could "compromise" by doing it one person's way one week and the other's the next week, but then they're both unhappy half the time.
Or people could, y'know, actually TALK about how they prefer to live before they decide to live together. Radical idea, I know. But if she actively doesn't want the bed made, one of them is going to be unhappy, and if she actively wants to have stuff out on the counters, one of them is going to be unhappy. I suppose they could "compromise" by doing it one person's way one week and the other's the next week, but then they're both unhappy half the time.
Not disagreeing there. And if that's the case, it's best to know that because you'd better understand where your partner isn't going to change - and if so, you can decide quickly whether you can live with that.
But I think the concept that "partners shouldn't change!" is in itself toxic. Yeah, you've got the girls who get the bad boy, wear the edges off that sumbitch, then get bored and move on. But most relationships are about compromising on some level, and making everything someone's concerned about "their problem" is a hostile way of approaching it.
For me, I like a messy house. I've told my wife that I'm not going to live in one of those places where there's never anything on the counters, as that feels inhumanly sterile to me. She'd prefer that, but we meet in the middle. As I feel most couples do. And I don't think it's wrong of her to ask, "Hey, even though it doesn't benefit you to clean up the house, would you mind doing it to benefit me?" ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/79525392/399125) | | From: | ajr |
| Date: | November 16th, 2013 01:39 am (UTC) |
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(I realise this may not apply to all, as it depends on the size of where one may live, but)
One way I've found of compromising is to have one room for 'him', and one room for 'her'. You let me have my own space where I can do what I want and don't make me feel bad for it, and I'll do the same for you. Communal areas can be compromised on more easily as a result - both sides can think "Well, I have to do something here that isn't entirely as I want it, but at least I have my own space elsewhere."
Going back to the original post for a second: I think you're lucky that this happens:
so when Gini says, “Sweetie, I know you don’t mean to, but this really bothers me” in a kind tone of voice.
In my past experience, what usually happens is that the tone of voice isn't kind, that the unspoken, between-the-lines message is "Why are you doing this? Are you deliberately trying to hurt me?". Hell, sometimes "You clearly don't care about me" actually enters the spoken discourse. And, you know, when I make a mistake without thinking, I feel shit. But when I make a mistake without thinking and it's characterised as a deliberate action, I feel even shitter. And if it's done enough times, I get to the point where I think "Why am I bothering with this again?" and cut my losses.
Or, to deal in platitudes, respect goes both ways. Or, to cite Wikipedia, assume good faith.
tl;dr Platonic ideals may be poles apart, but compromise makes the alternatives liveable.
Edited at 2013-11-16 01:39 am (UTC) ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/660147/68144) | | From: | naath |
| Date: | November 14th, 2013 04:57 pm (UTC) |
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Maybe they could both change.
If you've agreed to live together then regardless of whose place you move into you are now *both* living there and it should be home for *both* of you.
Of course maybe there is an unbridgeable gap between your desires for how your living space works - in that case perhaps you should rethink the whole "living together" idea.
I'm an untidy person by nature; I don't think I could live with someone who couldn't live with my untidiness. Fortunately I don't.
If you've agreed to live together then regardless of whose place you move into you are now *both* living there and it should be home for *both* of you. Of course maybe there is an unbridgeable gap between your desires for how your living space works - in that case perhaps you should rethink the whole "living together" idea.
Yup. EXACTLY. His preferences should not trump hers as the OP seems to suggest (whether he means it that way or not). Sure the girlfriend might be a bit messy and the boyfriend can't stand it. But maybe she can't stand people who are excessively or obsessionally tidy. In the interests of ""equality,maybe he should ease up a bit and compromise as much as he is expecting her to compromise Presumably because she wants to live together too.
If that's not the case--if he got kicked out of his old apartment and she suggested staying with her out of pity and so forth, or if Living Together really really means something to him and not her--then that's different.*
Presumably she wants to live with him. He wants to live with her. So they're both getting something they want. So they both need to compromise a little.
I'm with you on not expecting someone to change drastically in a relationship. (And I, for the record, live alone precisely so I don't have to compromise in this manner.) But there's a lot of middle ground between "now you must completely change your lifestyle and very being" and "Hey, do you mind doing the dishes three days a week?" It takes a certain kind of dickishness to conflate the two.
That latter isn't just romantic relationships, BTW. If you've ever had a roommate, you've compromised without Changing Who You Are OMG. If you've ever worked in an office, you've probably worn slightly different clothes--even if not just your PJs--put on headphones to listen to music, and dealt with that person who always wants it ten degrees colder/warmer than you do. Hell, if you've ever had *friends*, you've probably compromised on Mexican food or seeing the 9:30 movie rather than the midnight showing.
Nobody should change who they fundamentally are for other people. But nobody likes the person who thinks every little detail about them is who they fundamentally are, either.
*Not to say she shouldn't make any kind of effort there either, but the balance of obligation is more on his side. +1. My wife got very upset when I was talking about our potential future pregnancy and talked about pregnant ladies and the "fetus" inside them. I have learned to use the word "baby" for these cases, because I don't want my wife to cry unnecessarily. It would have been a huge mistake to get into some sort of argument about technically correct definitions. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/23145674/985276) | | From: | starmind |
| Date: | November 14th, 2013 05:10 pm (UTC) |
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This is one of the things that helped drive my first wife and I apart.
My second wife and I deal with this by compromise, too. I prefer the house much more neat than she does...so neither of us has the house the way we "prefer" it, but it's most often in a state we can both live with and not feel stressed about. Same here. Absolutely the same here. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/44258439/7837318) | | From: | hayet |
| Date: | November 14th, 2013 08:09 pm (UTC) |
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As the unintentional slob in my relationship...I totally agree. ;) I have the girlfriend's problem.
She just doesn't see what she's not focused on.
I hope she doesn't have the kind of history that made it a survival trait for me, but if she does, she needs to be told stuff in a way that gets her attention. If she's like me, she'll take care of anything she's told about with no objection, and probably with some good cheer about being useful. Remembering to tell her is extra work for her roomie, and a pain, but I'm almost sure it has to be less grief than he's got now. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/660147/68144) | | From: | naath |
| Date: | November 15th, 2013 11:27 am (UTC) |
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It could be that.
I have three reasons that my stuff is always a mess:
one is that I find it much more satisfying to tidy a LARGE MESS into no mess than to tidy a small mess into no mess; a big sense of accomplishment for having done it and all the effort happens at once.
the second is that if I tidy all my things away "nicely" then many of the things that I want *most days* have to go into places that are a pain to get them back out - my house is simply too small to store everything in easy-to-get-to places. For instance my party shoes are on top of a 6' tall wardrobe; I have to get a ladder to access them (I'm short) - that's OK for a shoe I want once a year, but not for one I want most days.
the third is that if I can't see something I forget that I have it, sometimes this leads to panics (where is my passport!) sometimes to ending up buying things that I don't need. This is of course connected to the fact that my storage is optimised for "fit as much as possible into this space" and not "make sure that when I open this cupboard I can see everything that is in it". I hadn't thought it out the way you have. These reasons all resound in my brain as good and sensible.
My own chief problem may be called reason zero, i.e., I am someone who, if I were a character in a horror movie, would step over bodies while looking for the fusebox. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/660147/68144) | | From: | naath |
| Date: | November 15th, 2013 09:34 pm (UTC) |
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ah the simple inability to see the mess...
I guess that "being really observant of the mess" makes the mess much less easy to deal with; and I admit I'm not super observant of it. But I do *use* much of it a lot of the time; so simply "not seeing" it would be a bit counter-productive for me. Well, technically I would have to see Victim #3 to step over him, but currently I'd be tasking "fusebox search". If somebody would be so good as to point out, "That was a horribly mutilated corpse of somebody who was having sex earlier," I could reboot and begin collecting useful articles from the kitchen to turn the crazed killer into a meatloaf. Failing that, I could at least start chanting, "Fuck Pepsi! Fuck Pepsi!" until the killer was stopped or went away, thereby ensuring that I would not be in any further scenes in the movie before the closing one where I and everyone who stuck around me would all say, "Whew." Or we could all just stick around where the body was, since nobody in a horror flick ever gets killed in the same place. I digress. I do that. Our host on this topic (Remember the topic? I finally have) has a point about making changes for other people you decide to live with. The issue does work both ways, was what I started by saying; it's possible this girlfriend needs to be reset regularly. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/660147/68144) | | From: | naath |
| Date: | November 16th, 2013 08:09 am (UTC) |
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It is indeed possible. And sometimes even things that look "easy" are really hard changes to make. If you want someone to make that change for you you might need to help them with making it. As long as the toilet paper hangs the right way. On that, there is no compromise.
-Alex
I agree with all of this, especially the notion that because it looks small it doesn't matter -- those things REALLY REALLY matter to our happiness.
Except that, for me, "she is doing something wrong" is the worst possible way of putting it, because it suggests not just "I should fix this for my partner's benefit" (yay!) but "they're right and I'm wrong and I should feel awful for having this problem in the first place" (which isn't what you meant, but I can't hear it any other way...). All of this is good, but something I have to remember (being a "shut up and live with it" person by nature) is this: If she's doing something that makes me feel stressed and claustrophobic in my own home, and I haven't at least told her that it makes me feel that way, then I'm doing something wrong. There's a great section in John Powell's book Why Am I Afraid To Tell You Who I Am which says (in part): If I tell you that it bothers me when you do something you are accustomed to, I may be tempted to believe that it would be better not to mention it. Our relationship will be more peaceful. You wouldn't understand, anyway.
So I keep it inside myself, and each time you do your thing my stomach keeps score 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... until one day you do the same thing that you have always done and all hell breaks loose. All the while you were annoying me, I was keeping it inside and somewhere, secretly, learning to hate you. Compromise is vital, but communication even more so. ![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/92976633/2357039) | | From: | ccr1138 |
| Date: | November 15th, 2013 04:03 pm (UTC) |
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This.
![[User Picture]](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/65812750/59194) | | From: | firecat |
| Date: | November 17th, 2013 08:07 am (UTC) |
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If you're feel stressed and claustrophobic and unwelcome in your own home, then something is wrong.
But starting the conversation with "You're doing something wrong and you have to change" is no better than starting with "That's a stupid thing to care about, so I'm not going to change." Both frame it as a power struggle from the get-go.
It works better if the attitude going in is "There is a mismatch in our comfort levels here. Is there some arrangement we can make where we both get what we need and avoid what we hate?" Wow. I'm missing one part here. I survived child abuse. I was "parented" by abusive hoarders. I cleaned their filth as much as they allowed, which wasn't much at all. I lived with their bullshit and their need to control through filth, and the beatings, and then I moved out.</p> I am estranged from them and glad to be. They had their chances and they fucked them up every single time. It's been 20+ years. I've done therapy. If my partner, with whom I share a home, is "a little bit messy," after I've told them multiple times, your clutter is triggering me and you are hurting me, it's not a matter of meeting in the middle for this situation. It's a matter of whether you want to be with me enough to change and stop hurting me, intentional hurt or not. I've done the therapy. I do the work. This may be as good as it gets, even if I do them for decades more. So it isn't always about compromise exactly. |
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