I agree which is why I've never made fun of Twilight.

I actually want to read it - because I subscribe to Hunter S. Thompson's theory that "There's always something to be said for anything a million people like."

(Note: He did not specify if that something would be positive or not, just that anything that speaks to that many people is generally worth exploration and discussion.)

It's super expensive here though. At 20 bucks a book (the local bookstore doesn't stock the cheaper softcovers but rather a format that is halfway between softcover and hardcover) I haven't been quite motivated to make the investment.

That said, as someone who loved V.C. Andrews and pretty much all vampire stories I assume I'd have some fun with it.

I actually liked the first movie - because I thought the contrast between her family and Edward's family was interesting.

I haven't seen the other films yet.

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I subscribe to Hunter S. Thompson's theory that "There's always something to be said for anything a million people like."

As do I. But in this case, the thing that a million people like would probably just drive me batty.

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I've read the books. All four of them.

My description? One word:

Meh.

What annoyed me most about them was their plot-lessness and total BS towards the end.

What you describe is the same way I feel about The Da Vinci Code. That whole digging in religious history just plain doesn't interest me. I can't say anything about if the book is good or badly written. The premise leaves me cold. I don't want to read it.

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I read them, they're fairly gripping. But I kind of think Bella is clinically depressed. Even when she is in love, she's kind of detached. With a little Wellbutrin, the story would be totally different.

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Interestingly, a good friend, who has struggled with clinical depression for years reckons that, as "meh" as she finds the books on the whole, the second one does contain one of the most accurate fictional portrayals of depression she's ever seen.

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I'm with you on this one, sir. I made it a point to read the first book, and see the first movie just so I could form my own opinion. That opinion is that while the books aren't up to my standards, they have brought the escapist happiness to millions of people, and have probably worked to usher in a new generation of readers who will go on from Stephenie Meyer's admittedly limited literary talents to more lush gardens. All in all, I find that a very positive thing.

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I don't entirely agree with you, on movies more than books. Take something like "Captivity", I can be offended by the sexy dead girl billboards, and have a strong dislike the whole torture porn genre, I can read several reviews to confirm my suspicions, not just by "my herd" but reviews across the globe via aggregate reviewers like Rotten Tomatoes. It's precisely what it says on the tin, there's no great plot twist, I don't need to actually view the specific details to know that. Something like the "Last Temptation" is purposed to be unusual and new, so people should see the work before they judge it * but we have whole genres devoted to giving people exactly what they expect. Something might come along with a new angle, which you'll hear about, but you don't need to experience a paint by numbers movie to know the numbers are painted.

*Incidentally if they're protesting "Jesus in a sex scene" the details aren't important, they're protesting the concept more than the actual film. It could be handled tastefully and gracefully but they're upset by the premise more than the actual work. It would help though, if they were more clear about the distinction.

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This.

I think you have a duty to find out, from impartial reviews, what exactly goes on in a particular work, before you criticize. But I don't think I have to read, for example, the Gor novels or Atlas Shrugged to know that their message is abhorrent.

If I were complaining about deep characterization or writing style, then yes, I think I'd need to read it. Or if there's some disagreement about what the actual intent is--"This comes off as X to some people, but it's really Y", which is why I don't publicly rant about the Thomas Covenant books.

I read some of Twilight. Meyer's prose style isn't horrible, and I can get the appeal of abstract plot--"average girl has totally hot guy fall for her", it's kind of a paranormal version of Sixteen Candles--but every single plot summary has pointed out creepy sexist things. Even the *positive* ones--they just cast aforementioned creepy sexist things as "romantic" or "family values" or whatever.

So I think you need to be well-informed, but not necessarily to read or watch the whole thing.

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I have read the books, I kind of love to hate them, they are miserable, trashy fun. I am more entertained by the lens of "Vampire with an eating disorder." than the intended story.

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Really, they're a good depiction of some pretty unlikable characters. Considering that she spends the whole first book comparing their plight to Wuthering Heights, I have a hard time believing it was an accident.

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I've read them. They're kinda boring and Bella's really annoying for someone so bland.

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Oh: and repetitive. SO repetitive

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Thank you!

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I enjoy watching people hate on the books as they read them, yet they continue to read them. It's literary crack.

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I totally did that. It was because I'm curious: there had to be SOMETHING holding all those readers. In retrospect, I believe that something was a crack marketing team. (also: I read fast and brought them with me camping, so I read all 4 over the course of a few days)

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I read them. I hated them, and on a level I'd never experienced before, I found myself angry because they were so poorly written yet all these people I knew hadn't read anything before were spouting off how fabulous they were. Then the whole Twilight versus Harry Potter thing started--as if you can't like both?--and I just removed myself from the debates. Neither book is great literature (though, I think the Potter books are better written), but if that's what people like, why crap on their enjoyment? I try not to do that as a rule, so I stayed quiet about Twilight.

And for the record, I loved "Last Temptation of Christ." It is one of the rare movies I watch over and over. It never fails to make me cry. Had I listened to "people" and never saw that movie, I think my personal impression of what Christ is would be very different. (Admittedly, it's part of the reason I left the Catholic Church, but that's a long story.)

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Not sure if I'll go all the way to hate on Twilight, but I'm close. Bella's whining was my main issue with them, as well as being unable to choose between Jacob and Edward, even knowing that she loved Edward best. (growls) I don't like those sorts of headgames. At all.

Harry Potter at least is a likeable character, a more or less average child with magical potential whom the Very Bad Guy has fixated on as his arch foe, the One who can end him once and for all. It isn't that HARRY is special, he was chosen. It isn't that HARRY is so fabulous... but he makes friends with the right people, and acts as the glue to hold them together (with some times where he fails, like ALL people do), and he and those friends are struggling to keep the Bad Things from happening. I really, really liked that Harry wasn't actually so utterly fabulous, that he didn't buy into this, "Wow... everyone ELSE thinks I'm so great, I must really BE that great!" He knew a lot of people were depending on him, he struggled with it, and bore up well under the pressure of trying to keep his world from imploding.

While both Harry and Bella struck me as "real" people... I never want to know Bella. I'd slap me some whiny wench if she were to cross my path and try to be my "friend". Harry would likely make for a fun person to hang out with. Not sure we'd find anything to talk about, but...

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I read about 3 chapters of the first one before I got annoyed with Bella and quit. Does that count? I also used to peer over my classmate's shoulder while she was reading and look for patches of ridiculous grammar, which were not hard to find.

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The argument could, of course, be made that one doesn't have pollute oneself with something horrible in order to learn enough about it to detest it (i.e., "Don't knock those Aryan extremists until you've sat in on a meeting!")...

But then again, I tend to research even the things I believe to be absolute evil before I start railing against them in public, so it may not be a very strong argument. I do, however, believe that's how the fundies are approaching it.

I actually recommend reading at least the first book of the series. I don't think your cultural education is really complete in this country without it. SM has taken a hell of a lot of heat for the disturbing overtones in gender relations in her books, and frankly, I think it's undeserved; she keyed right into the majority adolescent female subconscious fantasy. It's not disturbing that she wrote the books, it's disturbing that she struck such a massive chord with so many young women.

It's a highly useful diagnostic. I wish it were discussed in classrooms.

It's also April Fool's Day, which makes me look at both your post and my reply a bit sideways, but I am TRYING to be earnest, here. :)

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The argument could, of course, be made that one doesn't have pollute oneself with something horrible in order to learn enough about it to detest it (i.e., "Don't knock those Aryan extremists until you've sat in on a meeting!")...

And I believe in that. I think if you're going to really go toe-to-toe about the Aryan extremists, you should listen to a couple of speeches and read their manifesto before you go off on them. Just so that you can, you know, be familiar with what's there and not with what people have represented is there.

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Is this a good place to plug my Twilight fanfic (http://luminous.elcenia.com)? It requires no knowledge of, let alone affection for, the canon series, and in fact most of my fans are anti-Twilight. (Personally, I enjoyed the books; although I acknowledge that they have assorted flaws I think most of the more screechy vitriol is off-base.)

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the writing in general hurt my teeth.

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I think the thing about criticizing trendy things is this:

Sometimes people are criticizing them out of context, because they're trendy, as per your last post.

Sometimes, on the other hand, these works contain genuinely disturbing elements. While they're not the first to do so, the very fact of their popularity brings the disturbing elements more to light. An obscure racist and misogynistic book that only hipsters read...well, I'd probably go "Dude, *fucked up*" if it came to my attention, but odds are it won't. If that same book became popular, I'd be much more likely to encounter and thus be icked out by the fucked up elements.

Also...argh. I know it's morning, I know I might be misinterpreting, but can you please not use the "you're the sort of person who wants to be irritated" device? Most people who complain about these things *don't* want to be irritated, the whole "looking for offense" deal is a pretty big silencing technique, and it just doesn't come off well.

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I think if you're going, "Well, I'm going to read this book even though everything I've heard about it sounds like it's going to piss me off," you do have a pretty good case for someone looking for offense.

There's a significant difference between that and "I read this book, and it irritated me."

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I haven't read them all - I've read parts of all of them.

They're YA (young adult) romance novels. And they're not good ones.

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i couldn't get beyond the first page of twilight. after 8 or 9 instances of "it was" starting a sentence on the first page alone, i pitched the book across the bookstore, i'm embarrassed to say or maybe not so much. i'm sorry, but i have always seen "it was" as poor, sloppy, lazy writing. after i collected the book and flipped through the rest of it, i determined that meyer isn't the best of writers and to this day still wonder how on earth this book (never mind the series) made it to print in the first place.

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I made it through maybe 5 pages. The quality of the writing, and the general style just annoyed the shit out of me.
The True Blood series had pretty much the same problem for me.

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how much of twilight do you have to watch before you know you hate it.

doctor who is a lot like twilight. its absolutely awful. and the reason people love the show is either because the are british and were 3 years old when they saw it and got imprinted, or they identify so strongly with super hero weirdo that they love it and refuse to admit its bad.

same with twilight its awful and girls identify with "pants" I cant remember who the main character is

so how many episodes do you need to read or watch? one? a doctor who fan will tell you "but you can't just watch one episode" and a twilight fan will say "but you cant just watch just one movie".

ok, then. suppose i watch an entire series. suppose I watch the entire work of pertwee. this guy portrays an insufferable member of the upper class who is constantly name dropping the names of kings in a sort of "I knew him personally" where the effects are so cheap you'll see 3 daleks thrown out to represent a mass invasion, where the plots are are repeated so often that sometimes they just put webbed feet on dinosaurs and try the exact same plot again the padding is awful there is nothing good.

so a doctor who fan would say, but you need to watch other doctors, not just one series.

you see where this is leading. not just one movie, not just one book, not just one series to usefully criticize twilight or doctor who, you need to watch everything. Suppose you tried to criticize the movies Jaws, Jaws 2 and Jaws 3 just by watching Jaws 2 and Jaws 3?

No. You have to watch every single twilight book, every single twilight series, every movie, and then you can finally criticize it.

But then what use are you as a critic? You'll never watch twilight at all. Or if you do watch it, you'll watch half a movie and quit, and then realize you dont have a standing to say anything.

Which is why so much crap out there doesnt get the pounding on it deserves. So what if you're wrong! So what if you only watched Jaws 2. Go forth and smash.

It is a sin to be wrong about a movie or a series. It is a sin to criticize twilight after only seeing the trailers.

But it is an even worse sin to tolerate crap.

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I tried to read the first book, but my S.O. knocked it out of my hands, started yelling incoherently, threw it on the fire, then buried the ashes.

-Alex

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I also remember standing in line for The Last Temptation of Christ, and having pretty much the same conversations with protesters here in St Louis.

But they didn't tell me about that sex scene. When I asked if they had seen the film, they simply averred, "My {priest/minister/bishop} said it was evil."

Which, insofar as it goes, is a good thing. It's right and proper, when you're a sheep, to admit that you're a sheep. But it would be wrong to say that the sex scene was the Temptation, for it was not. The Temptation came after the crucifixion, when a mind in unbearable torment escaped into a fantasy that was not unbearable... and followed the fantasy's logic to a conclusion that was even more unbearable than the current physical pain. The film ends in triumph for the very human man Jesus of Nazareth, when he chooses to abandon the fantasy and accept the pain rather than the undoing of his life's work.

I am not a Christian, and so was able to view the film without the emotional overlay of religion to color my perceptions. I found The Last Temptation of Christ to be a thoughtful examination of human behavior under extreme stress. All in all, an excellent film by any standards.

Oh, and Twilight? I haven't read it, for many of the reasons that you cite, and will also remain silent on the question.

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Please forgive me if I am stepping out of bounds, but I would like to reply.

"I am not a Christian, and so was able to view the film without the emotional overlay of religion to color my perceptions."

I am a Christian myself, and I feel that I would be able to watch the movie without that same emotional overlay of religion that you speak of. 'Course, that could be because I am also a Sociology major and was one before I became a Christian. :P But even Jesus was tempted, and the point was that he did not give in, exactly like you said here: "The film ends in triumph for the very human man Jesus of Nazareth, when he chooses to abandon the fantasy and accept the pain rather than the undoing of his life's work."

I guess what I am saying is that I agree with that you have said about the movie (which I never knew about and am now interested in seeing), and that not all Christians will look at it in the "My pastor said it's evil so I'm not going to watch it" way, though it looks like some majority has and that colors people's perception.

I hope I said all of this well enough.

Also, Ferrett, I felt the way you are describing towards The Last Airbender movie. I'd heard the bashing, heard what M. Knight had said about it and his future plans, saw clips (of which I will not include the trailer because the trailer made it look REALLY good), and for the most part did my research before seeing it... and I will admit I had my "sheep" moments because I already had my bias. However, I still felt that I owed the movie the courtesy of at least watching it before I made my final decision. I was just as disappointed as I thought I would be, but at least I KNEW for sure. And I will see it through to the end, because I can't really justify having an opinion on it unless I do.

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I cannot ever have an opinion of the content of the Twilight novels, because I'm not able to get past the bad writing to actually read them. I've tried to read the first one a couple of times. And then I have to put it down before my compulsion to buy a box of red pens for simple line editing overwhelms me.

I don't (have any grounds to) object to the content. I'm angry at these books because they promote the idea that English skills are not important for someone who's profession is going to revolve around the written word.

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(polite cough)

I'm going to take the liberty of assuming, given the content of your message, above, that (like me) you will appreciate rather than be irked by having errors pointed out so that you have the opportunity to correct them.

-Alex

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I don't understand why folks are so interested in bagging on entertainment that doesn't appeal to them. It seems so sadly prevalent in our culture. Can't we all just read/watch/listen to what we like and let other people enjoy what they like? Ranting about how much we hate a particular performer/book/movie/music video does not contribute anything to the world. That's not good art. Insightful criticism of media that offers something constructive is great, but I think time would be better spent drawing people's attention to quality content. This isn't directed at you, Ferret. It just seems to be coming up a lot lately. People ranting about Twilight, or Justin Beiber, or that poor 13-year-old Rebecca Black. Twilight, I understand critiquing. The fact that they're not quality films... who cares? But I do think there is a legitimate concern that they could influence teenage girls to romanticize unhealthy relationship characteristics. The trouble is that most of the railing against Twilight one hears doesn't touch on that concern, it's just people ranting about how it "sucks" and how "stupid" people are for liking it.

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This. I think the unhealthy relationship model is the biggest concern I have with Twilight and needs to be addressed with impressionable readers. Otherwise. . .eeeeh it reads as sour grapes, especially when it's other artistes who are mad that she made all that money. As they say, hate the game not the playa.

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The first book held promise just on a world building level. The idea of vampires living in a place where there's hardly any sun was at least novel. The sparkliness? Well, honestly just about any vamp book gets all fappity about that kind of thing though generally sans sparkles. But later it started sucking hardcore when it became clear that (a) we weren't going to see awesome vampire powers (b) Bella has Problems. Major, major problems.

I will say that in terms of an egregor, I get it, it's essentially Wuthering Heights for Gen Y. I think though that the argument can be made that Vampire Diaries already did that and frankly better at least in the tv version. Plus, give me the Salvatore brothers over Jacob/Edward any day!

Anyways, I always recommend watching the movies with the Rifftrax (from the guys who did Mystery Science Theater) because they are hilarious and on point. I also enjoy reading Reasoning With Vampires which takes apart the language/grammar and the general "psychological fuckery" with aplomb.

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Yes x 100.

I want to read it, because I want to read everything. (Yes, I know, impossible dreams) But until I can get my hands on the first book, either half price find or freecycle, I'm not going to. I'm also not going out of my way to find it either. I want to read it but if it's that bad I don't want to give her money and support her. Now if I find that it's amazing and my cup of tea? Yeah, I'll buy the rest of the books new. But I don't think that's going to happen given what I have read about the series.

Meanwhile? I don't really talk about it or hate on it. It's pointless. Besides, I like to have facts to back up my perceptions.

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I do think these books are worth reading, if you're at all into puzzling about popular culture, and particularly about teenage girls' sexuality.

Although the writing is *phenomenally* bad, there are some weird quirks to them. Somewhere at the top of this thread people allude to mental health stuff. Yea, Bella's self-esteem, general mood and personal effectiveness are so low, that if you thought SM knew what she was doing this would be a really brave portrayal.

The only thing I've ever read that is so bad, and feels as much like these books is Mills & Boon. And I came away with the strong impression - this is Mills & Boon for tweens. I think the popularity of it speaks to the way young girls want to think about sexuality. Because these are *very* sexy books. Particularly the final one, which involves sex so violent furniture is destroyed and people get injured. I forgot that this is a book aimed at pre-teen girls.

Actually it is pretty radical that these books are all about a girl's sexual desire. She spends the whole time perving over Edward and dreaming about getting in his pants, not to mention risking her life in order to get the sex with him she wants. A young girl looking at and lusting over boys is something we practically *never* see. Every other sentence in this book is about how beautiful he is, and we're invited (however clumsily) to step into her shoes and drool over him, too. I've heard people argue the reason this is so horrible, violent and controlling is because girl's sexuality is horrible. It's something we don't get to see, and doesn't get expressed (there's a reason why women's sexual peak is in their 30s), so it comes out pretty twisted.

Also, the last book is a real treat of hilariousness, and the final fight isn't *that* bad.

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I was quite upset with Edward for not taking a class in practical BDSM, because it was very clear that Bella was GGG and enjoyed the uninhibited sex rather a lot.

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