The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferrett's Journal - Nerdcore: Thoughts On Roleplaying
May 16th, 2008
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Nerdcore: Thoughts On Roleplaying

One of my favorite roleplaying settings of all time is Deadlands – a juicy little setting that combines westerns, steampunk, Cthulhu, alternate history, time travel, and zombies into a rich, tasty package.

Unfortunately, Deadlands is also the poster child for a style of roleplaying I love that is always doomed to failure.

But lemme fill you in a bit on the Deadlands history first. See, in 1863, a group of Indians had had enough with being beaten down by the white man, so a batch of them travelled secretly to the Hunting Grounds and broke the bonds on all the evil Manitou that had been bound there to release magic back to the world.

The first the white men found out about this was on the field of Gettysburg, where the North and South shot at each other. And as each man fell, they rose as zombies and chewed both sides to bits.

The Indian nations, fueled by magic, suddenly thundered forth to carve out a territory of their own, and both the North and South found themselves fighting on two fronts, unable to make headway. Ten years later, they’re still at a grudging war, brought to a virtual standstill.

The white man’s also learned to use magic, which they do by playing cards with the Manitou, betting their very souls to cast spells. And they’ve also learned how to fuse magic with mad science, creating all sorts of crazy ghost rock-fuelled gadgets.

But the Manitou are evil, and their end goal was to turn the world into a place of utter fear and terror so the Reckoners could be unleashed. The wars were good, but they wanted more – so they created the foulest monsters, dredged up from the subconscious, and now all sorts of ghoulies and critters are roaming the Weird West that need to be defeated.

Enter the heroes.

The nice thing about Deadlands is that it clearly has a Story, and each sourcebook advanced that tale a little. You’d get the latest supplement and discover “Oh, the North’s now in control of Shan Fan,” or find that in fact the plots that Character X had to make a railway to the West Coast had fallen apart. And there were rich secrets to be discovered (my favorite? Discovering that the leader of the Southern Confederate Alliance had been taken over by a doppelganger bent on hell and destruction).

Things happened when you weren’t around. Which was an incentive to pick up the new books. You had movers and shakers in the Weird West that you got attached to, and wanted to see what happened to them.

Now, Deadlands isn’t perfect. It has perhaps the most flavorful mechanic system ever devised, using both poker chips and a deck of cards – so cool - but the mechanics are complex and difficult to learn. Worse, some of the characters are outright useless (I played a Huckster, the guy who plays cards with demons, only to have them admit in later supplements that you wound up getting fried three times as often as the other PCs).

And Deadlands is the deadliest game around, if you play it straight out of the box. You have to make Guts checks every time you encounter a monster, which pretty much kills you, and every firefight is deadly. They have pre-planned adventures, but looking at them and the stingy rewards you get at the end of them, one wonders how any PCs survived to the end of any of them.

But the real problem with Deadlands? It has a Story to tell.

See, I’ve been rereading the supplements lately (when I’m down, RPGs are my comfort reading), and I couldn’t remember how the story ended. I remembered that everything did in fact get wrapped up and the Reckoners were disposed of, but I was surprised given how well I remembered the rest of it that I couldn’t remember the ending.

So I read Unity, the final Deadlands supplement. And remembered how terrible it was.

The story was actually pretty good. It wrapped up things. But as an adventure, which it was supposed to be, it sucked.

Unity is pretty much this:

“Go here and fail to save this important character who does better things than you do, who must die to advance the plot. Then go here and have another important character save your bacon from the hordes of evil armies. Then a third important character handles the Reckoners for you, and you play his errand boy.”

The thing is, I like dynamic worlds. As a reader, I like RPGs that have some movement – the world of D&D isn’t that interesting to me, mainly because it never really changes. Deadlands is great because it feels like history.

As a player, however, I want the ability to affect that. And when you have A Story to tell, you can’t really knock it far off-track. If you somehow, via a Herculean effort, manage to kill the mayor of Shan Fan and take control, you have now diverged from the official storyline and all future supplements don’t apply to you. And if you can’t do that, then what’s the point of roleplaying?

As a GM, I try to allow my characters to attempt anything. There are some things they’re vastly unlikely to succeed at, and some things that are downright foolish – as in, “If you do this, I am not going to attempt to pull your fat out of the fire, which may lead to a TPK” – but they can try anything. And in some cases, they’ve succeeded wildly.

When you have A Story, however, that’s hard to do. The PCs can’t stop the Modron March, or if they do then whoops the future supplements are worthless. That’s a bad place to be in. You have to leave the villains there for other PCs to fight.

Deadlands tried gamely to fight this. They had the rule of “If you stat it, they will kill it,” so wisely they did not give statistics for the biggest and most vital player characters. And they held votes from various groups around the world – if enough PCs succeeded in this module here, then the official storyline would reflect that victory. If they failed, then the storyline would reflect the failure.

But in the end, Deadlands, though a compelling read, is ultimately a failure as a roleplaying game because it puts the characters in a little box. And that’s never fun.

Sadly, my favorite game, Planescape, did that as well… But that’s a story for another day.

(Tell me I'm full of it)

Comments
 
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From:[info]jadasc
Date:May 16th, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
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The word that eventually got attached to this sort of thing was "metaplot." There was a strong movement away from it in the past ten years based on just this sort of feeling. The trick is that, well, metaplot tended to sell a hell of a lot of books based on people who wanted that compelling read. These days, there seems to be a slight movement back in that direction, with a greater sense of "backstory, rather than metaplot." We'll tell you all sorts of things about how it was, and how it is -- but how it will be is up to you.

And I also liked Deadlands a whole lot. Most baroque system ever, but I had a blast with it.
From:[info]arashinomoui
Date:May 16th, 2008 02:42 pm (UTC)
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Ayup; Exalted has done this a lot; a lot of "Up until X date, here's what has happened;" or "here are three or four possible actions." Which was one of things that I enjoyed of the setting books.
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From:[info]jfargo
Date:May 16th, 2008 02:47 pm (UTC)
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Unfortunately, there are MANY supplements that do this with games, which is why I mostly home brew my worlds. That way, I might have A Story To Tell, but if my players change it through their actions, I can shift what I'm doing to accommodate the changes.

I'd love to hear the Planescape story, because I don't think I've ever heard you say anything negative about it.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:49 pm (UTC)
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Oh, there are negatives. I'll talk about 'em at some later point.
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From:[info]ronin_kakuhito
Date:May 16th, 2008 02:57 pm (UTC)
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I loved that aspect of the Mystara setting for D&D. The world was a lot bigger than the PCs. They could definately have an impact on world events, but in their absence, things were happening, and those things would inevitably spill over to effect their portion of the world as well. And yes, there were events that were almost impossible to stop, but even the plots of the Immortals could be countered. Of course, while you were off trying to keep one of the lords of Entropy from hitting a country with a meteor, A war would be springing up in one place, a new power group would be forming in one of the wizard kingdoms, a rich playboy would be setting off on his trip around the world in an airship, the engineer of an ancient crashed space ship would be ascending to godhood, a tunnel through the shell of the world was almost completed, and a small desert nation would be unleashing hordes of guardian undead and golems upon an invader and infecting their crops with a plague. Your PCs could deflect and influence, but there were broad tides of history that were not contingent on single events. For several years they published a yearly book that listed the major events in every country on the surface and underside of the world, what happened with all of the named characters in those places, the military strength of each country, and additional adventure hooks and suggestions for all of the major story lines in the setting. These were awesome books for the DM, though less player friendly. The fourth one in the setting got rid of most of that material, and inserted a lot of speculation and gossip (probably trying to expand the customer base) but the first three poor wizards almanacs are, along with Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog and the Planescape Monster Manual, some of my favorite books published by TSR in the 90s.
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From:[info]sam_lamander
Date:May 16th, 2008 03:10 pm (UTC)
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L5R also has A Story To Tell, sometimes to the fanatics greatest dismay ("The Crab joining forces with Fu-Leng ? You gotta be shitting me !"). Though, said fanatics just tweaked the metaplot as they saw fit, or came up with their own stories.

While I like novels based on RPGs (Forgotten Realms novels brought me back to D&D. Yes, I wanted to play Drizzt. Which is why I intended to be a GM), if I want to play a linear story, I'll play a computer game.
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From:[info]jfs
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:17 pm (UTC)
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But the L5R storyline was based on the results of their CCG competitions, which is why they were so often rubbish - a guy with a Scorpion Deck might win, and suddenly the RPG plot-writers needed to work out how come (in the RPG) the Scorpion were now in the ascendent.

Often the reasons really didn't work.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:07 pm (UTC)
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Still, a cool attempt to work it.
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From:[info]jfs
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:25 pm (UTC)
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Maybe.

I was very disappointed with 'Time of the Void' which basically rendered the characters to being spear carriers for the whole set of adventures. Nothing they did was really important, or felt like it would actually change things.

Much as I like 'real' worlds where things happen whether the players act or not, at the core, I want to run and play in games where the characters can have a significant effect.

But then I recall we've had a similar discussion a few years ago about Deadlands and meta-plot :-)
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From:[info]sam_lamander
Date:May 17th, 2008 04:35 pm (UTC)
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Yeah, I know that, and fully understand it IS the reason for the fanatics dismay.

But, like Ferrett, I think it was a nice try. The concept was great, but had the majot flaw of not accounting for powerdecking and that contestants would rather win (In a competition ! How dare they ?) than building a deck that makes sense.
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From:[info]jfs
Date:May 17th, 2008 07:47 pm (UTC)
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*shrug*

I'm not a fanatic, but I'm also not a CCGer. It's possible to dislike the direction AEG took without being a fanatic.

What 'makes sense' in a CCG doesn't necessarily make sense in an RPG.
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From:[info]sam_lamander
Date:May 19th, 2008 08:38 am (UTC)
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Well, I'm neither a fanatic or a CCGer as well, but while I didn't quite like lots of things about what AEG did with the storyline, I never actually thought it was a big deal. While I can understand the uproar some of AEG decisions created, I think it is a tad bit of an overreaction, and assume only fan(atic)s would get that vocal.
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From:[info]caudelac
Date:May 16th, 2008 03:48 pm (UTC)
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I was in a game that really sucked because the GM was so focused on Their Story, that the main of it was sitting there, watching their favorite NPC do things with the other NPCs while you waited to be able to do something.

And this being the thing. IMHO, the gaming world rarely does, and really shouldn't, survive first contact with the players. While I do like there being an overall world where things happen when you're not around, there will (or ought to be) a time when what the players do will completely de-rail this, and /they/ become the most important people on the political scene. The point being that it's not a video game, it's not an mmo. Around your table, the main-players in the box story are and have a right ought to be expendable. Honestly, I think that kind of thing forces the GM to come up with even better story stuffs... but the worst thing in any tabletop is to feel you're a spectator. And it's not like you have any precious graphics to help you.

That said, I love story-core rpg books for reading, at least. But I really prefer to run a D&D based world, because then, I'm... well, actually, with me, I'm running universes I've created personally, that I've never managed to finish a written story in. Whoops.
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From:[info]slayride27
Date:May 16th, 2008 03:56 pm (UTC)
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Deadlands is one of those games with a great setting, but terrifying mechanics. My friend Ted loves it to death though, especially all the gambler aspects with the poker chips and cards. Deadlands shows one of the major problems of a game having a metagame, where events happen as supplements and adventures are made. I had the same problem in Earthdawn, since I generally let the PCs take any action (I had 3 TPKs before my longest ED campaign of ten years). Now Earthdawn is a weird game in that the core set really does not provide a lot of storyline material, so we were pretty much on our own besides the published adventures, and things began to spiral well away from the published books as the outcomes of our adventures rarely meshed with what was published. Additionally, I fleshed out some of the settings that the PCs were in, only for FASA to come out with books later that detailed those settings, and by that time the setting I had and the setting FASA had were completely different. It is a funny question though, does a living game system actually handicap the gamemaster? Would it be easier for a gamemaster to always run a dead system so that he knows no new supplements or adventure modules can later contradict his game world?
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From:[info]perich
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:01 pm (UTC)
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Yes.

Also: more RPG posts, please.
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From:[info]kailara
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:25 pm (UTC)
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I don't know how common this is, outside of the people I game with, but the GMs running games I've played in for any long term game have all taken relatively static systems (like D&D) and mixed in enough home-brew to create story that we are affecting. There's history to the game world that is set by the system creators, but any characters created by the players that survive a campaign become part of that history for our purposes...sort of a development of "house rules". In all, this seems to have worked really well for creating a dynamic, shifting game setting that invests the players in the story without taking away a static, pre-built system for the GM to work from - because really, home-brewing the entire system from scratch takes a LOT of time.
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From:[info]particle_man6
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:25 pm (UTC)
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Savage Worlds is the new rule system by Shane Hensley and it also has a Deadlands book. Combat is quicker (the motto is Fast! Furious! Fun!). The best of the bunch (imho) is not the Deadlands book but the Savage World of Solomon Kane book (a done in one, it contains both rules and setting in one volume). Set in 1610. It has plot point stuff, but that can be cheerfully ignored because it also has a good random adventure generator.

Still deadly, though. :) There are bennies that can be used to help save the player's bacon, however.

Of note, one of the spells in SWoSK is "Animate Hand" which gives you control over a crawling hand that can choke your enemies. The down side? It is your hand, and you have to cut it off to cast the spell. I don't see this one being used to much... :)

But I agree with you that metaplot sucks. It was awful for 7th Sea too. Of course, there I loved the base setting but was not thrilled with the mechanics.

But if you want something metaplot free, get the Savage Worlds Explorer's edition. It is a rulebook with all you need and is only $10!
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From:[info]ammie_warrior
Date:May 23rd, 2008 11:18 am (UTC)
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My boyfriend has also seen the Savage Worlds light, and is determined to run a 50 Fathoms game. He's made it sound very cool.
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From:[info]mattador
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:38 pm (UTC)
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In every combat, my Deadlands character got hit in the head. EVERY TIME. He never got hit anywhere else, even once.

And yet, somehow, he survived.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:46 pm (UTC)
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In the head? Tricky!
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From:[info]mattador
Date:May 16th, 2008 06:15 pm (UTC)
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After the first combat, his ten-gallon hat was displaced in favor of a blood-spotted bandage... that became a permanent addition, picking up more blood as it went along.
From:(Anonymous)
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:39 pm (UTC)
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Exalted does a good job of dealing with this It has a very involved backstory, which each supplement expands on, but everything stops at the point at which the game is expected to start. And the characters are *expected* to kick over the apple cart.

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From:[info]nightshade316
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:41 pm (UTC)
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Part of the problem with Deadlands was that they had to do this to have Hell On Earth make any sense. It was quite the bitch to send my future characters back in time after we offed Stone with the orignal Wild West characters due to the metaplot of the Reckoners putzing around with time.

The upside? Pulling out my near godlike huckster out from the cobwebs and smacking the shit out of War. :)
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:43 pm (UTC)
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Ooo, gimme stats! I wanna see!
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From:[info]nightshade316
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:49 pm (UTC)
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For which? War was an NPC so I never had any. As for my huckster, I'd have to try the find the sheet at home (at work right now). I may have tossed it when I moved last July and tossed a bunch of stuff.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:50 pm (UTC)
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War I've seen. I just wanna see what kind of Huckster was godlike in another campaign.
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From:[info]nightshade316
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:54 pm (UTC)
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I do remember his Hexslinging roll. 10d20. My DM was generous. I don't think I ever pulled lower than a flush on the cards.
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From:[info]baronbrian
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:51 pm (UTC)
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I've never been a fan of the "advancing story" style of RPG. I think Rifts is what soured it for me. You'd play and then a new sourcebook would come out with so much stuff and cool things and hey, your character is now an obsolete weakling and most of the group is now bored with the setting they're in and want to do something in the new sourcebook and are those the stats for the Four Horseman!!??...

Yeah, I got tired of that. If something changed in the world, I wanted it to be something I did to change it (if I was the GM) or something that could at least fit in to the existing game without making it off balance.
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From:[info]dark_towhead
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:59 pm (UTC)

Response Part 1

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And yet, I am about four sessions away from finishing up a Deadlands campaign (that's been running strong for about 34 sessions, now, the one year anniversay is coming up in June). And only one of my four players (my wife) had ever heard of the system before (much less played it). The first session was fraught with "Uhm, what do I roll again?" or "What does a blue chip do?" or "How many cards do I get?" But then again, when I've introduced players to DnD, there are just as many "What do I roll again?" or "What do I have to add up again?"

The mechanics aren't so bad to learn... Mostly because I focused in on the storytelling aspect of the game. I also have not included much of the metaplot (though I've read a plethora of the books) because like any game a good GM has to know what interests the group and what does not. As a GM I feel quite comfortable completely obliterating the metaplot aspects of the game (EG. our game is set in Salt Lake City, and it looks like the end of this campaign is going to have the city razed by the Union Army because of the outcome of Player Character actions; veeery long story, which is a gaming story and therefore boring to anyone not involved in the game. The approaching army has made for an intriguing ticking clock propelling the characters through story plots, as we build up for the epic finale. Now, according to the works of the game developers, this does not happen. My question is so what? Since when is another guy or gal's opinion canonical to MY gaming group, unless I/WE decide it is?).

I think it's foolish to say that games with Stories to Tell ultimately fail. That sort of generalization can too easily be twisted into "Well why play in story centric games?" Because they do work for some groups, not for others.

The trick I've come to use for including metaplot is incorporating enough of it to make the world seem larger than your PCs (there's always something going on that the PCs have no say over), while not worrying terribly much about making your campaign/game sessions match up 100%. A good GM knows when to say, "Well, my PCs are wrecking this other guy's (the game developer) opinion of what should go on, but let's follow through and see what happens." Metaplot is by no means immutable truth. Any game system that might suggest otherwise is fooling itself. Instead, the books and campaign setting developments are merely a toolbox, just like any other, for inspiring GMs. As Egg Chen says in Big Trouble in Little China: "We take what we want and leave the rest. Much like your salad bar."

And I, for one, never intend to run a game that goes from the beginning of a campaign setting's metaplot all the way through to the end. I would not be interested in such a thing (and I'm well aware that I don't have a long term group for such a thing, even if I wanted to attempt it). I have purchased plenty of gaming materials that I am well aware I will never use in their entirity (or even directly use at all).

The amount of material for Deadlands (not including Hell on Earth or Lost Colony) is well beyond the scope of any single gaming group I might care to run... There are books for Back East: The North, Back East: The South, The Great Maze (California), Lost Angels (California, again), Canada, Mexico, Salt Lake City, &cetera, &cetera... Well, I own them. Will I use them? Probably not. Maybe an NPC from here, an NPC from there, a little fleshing out material for PCs from Boston or Biloxi, an adventure seed here, a nice political action there... But, nah, I won't be using any of the material wholesale.

Does that make it useless? Nope. No more so than my box for ODnD with the Keep on the Borderlands module is useless. Since, I dragged that module out and dusted it off for a very old school mini-campaign a couple of months ago, it's not useless at all...


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From:[info]dark_towhead
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:59 pm (UTC)

Re: Response Part 2

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And I do have a couple of quibbles with your comments about the mechanics. Who cares whether or not characters have to make a guts check when they face off against a monster? So what if combat is extremely brutal?

The first is obviously a direct descendant of Call of Cthulhu, where first sight of a monster can remove your character from the fight even before it begins (it has since made its way into any horror heavy game/system from Ravenloft to Chill to Horror Hero to All Flesh Must Be Eaten to... well, you name it). If your group is interested in a Monster of the Week sort of game where they won't freak out, why wouldn't a canny GM either 1) start them out with some amount of Grit (a point based device gathered over time, each point of grit adds to a character's guts check, thus making the characters inured to horror), 2) reduce the severity of a failed roll, or even 3) do away with this altogether. While it removes some of the feel of the game (a feeling I rather respond to, having been a CoC player for over fifteen years), but it is not quite that crucial.

As for the lethality of combat, it's actually rather debatable. Straight out, sure it could seem that way. However, as the player characters have a means of reducing/canceling damage as they take it (through the use of poker chips), well, this throws the matter of lethality quite up into the air. As yet, I have had no party/posse fatalities. Plenty of NPC fatalities, though.

My campaign group is perhaps not the typical, however. We have combat maybe once every four sessions or so. We're much more into the roleplaying/story aspect of things, and not so much the "Monster Busters/Outlaw Hunters!" or what have you.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:04 pm (UTC)

Re: Response Part 2

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So what you're saying is that if you throw most of the supplements out the window, play the game in a way that isn't supported by the modules (which have two or three combat sessions per game), don't purchase all the modules that support the game company and keep them in business, and essentially run it as though it could be any other RPG, it turns out it works?

Golly! Go figure. Any set of good roleplayers can make a system work, just as the simple D&D is no proof against bad roleplaying. But that doesn't make the system awesome, it makes your group and GMing awesome.

Confuse not the two.
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From:[info]kishi
Date:May 16th, 2008 04:59 pm (UTC)
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I had the same problem with a DM who wanted to run a Forgotten Realms campaign. He was always very wary of doing much of anything that would affect the official timeline, and we ended up tangentially brushing past major storylines that we could have affected, but he wanted to railroad us somewhere else.

He did teach me an important lesson, really. You can only run an official, heavily detailed setting like that up to a point. After that, you have to break their timeline and make it your own. More interesting that way, and then the players don't know what's coming up next.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:05 pm (UTC)
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I was in a game like that. The sad thing, it was a customized setting that could have been good, but we weren't allowed to affect the big guns that he liked. SO it sucked.
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From:[info]singingdragon
Date:May 16th, 2008 06:55 pm (UTC)
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Unity was AWFUL. I mean, yeah, some of that was that we played the whole damn module over one weekend on not enough sleep. But some of it was that half the time, we weren't even playing a game, we were being shown a movie. We had a creative posse and a Marshall that rewarded creativity, so we usually had a decent chance of winning the day in a very unconventional way against overwhelming odds, but there just wasn't any room for that in this module. We were just railroaded along from one set piece to the next.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:06 pm (UTC)
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Pretty much, yeah. I'm surprised at how little interactivity there is there, and when the combat turns to "roll dice for damage," then you know you're in trouble.
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From:[info]dr_pipe
Date:May 16th, 2008 07:21 pm (UTC)
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That's why you ignore anything in a suplement that doesn't work for you, and use what does. It's your game, dammit!
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:05 pm (UTC)
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Yeah, but I enjoy getting game ideas from supplements. That's what supplements are for.
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From:[info]dr_pipe
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:17 pm (UTC)
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Well, exactly! Get ideas from them. Don't be a slave to them, or throw them out entirely when your storyline diverges. Some things change if you succeed where a supplement told you to fail, but not everything... And part of the fun is in thinking about how that difference might affect various things.

But that's just me!
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From:[info]diamondmagus
Date:May 16th, 2008 09:52 pm (UTC)
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This is basically what ended the first World of Darkness. Writers got bogged down in too much metaplot and decided to reboot the world when the new edition came out. Some games ended up better (new Changeling is sweet), some worse (Mage), but that was the main problem with the old world.

As for Deadlands being the deadliest... it'd have to contend with old d6 Star Wars, where a single blaster bolt will kill you (hope you had that 4d6 starting Dexterity!) and Unknown Armies, where gunfights are INCREDIBLY lethal.
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From:[info]inncubus
Date:May 16th, 2008 11:17 pm (UTC)
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Star Wars is only really that dangerous early on. You can spend up to five character points on resisting damage, each represtenting an exploding dice. A good blaster does five or six dice of damage, so even without your strength and armour being taken into account you've got a decent chance (of course you do burn through the character points that way to a large extent, thereby not getting better very quickly but that's the choice). It also depends, I imagine, on how much combat happens in the game. Our GM seems to be having problems damaging the party's wookie, without throwing something so hard at us that the rest of us would almost certainly die.
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From:[info]apostate_96
Date:May 17th, 2008 12:15 am (UTC)
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Yeah, I'd liked Deadlands, too. Unfortunately, the group I got to try it with just wasn't really able to get into the roles and had trouble grasping the system. They were so discouraged and frustrated after the first night that they weren't willing to try it again. I was really bummed out by that.

I can also see the problem of boxing in the history of the gaming world too much like that. It doesn't really reward REAL roleplaying and creativity, which can be more than a little frustrating for good players. One friend of mine talked about something similar to that in a Star Trek game when the players, running Klingon characters, had the chance to go back in time and witness a historic defeat of the Klingon Empire by the Federation. The GM had assumed that they'd stick with making sure history went the way it was supposed to. However, the characters figured that real Klingons would want war and victory, and so decided to jump in and help them win. It made for a fascinating campaign, but one they ultimately had to dump because there was no source/reference material for what the galaxy would be like where the Empire had been victorious and crushed the Federation.
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From:[info]aberranteyes
Date:May 17th, 2008 02:34 am (UTC)
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I bow to few mammals in my love of White Wolf's Trinity Universe games, but they choked on their own metaplot(s) to a considerable extent. Each of the two chronologically later games (ÆON Trinity and Aberrant) had its own metaplot, and each game's events were meant to lead into the events of the later games (though, by the time they did Adventure!, they'd decided to leave the details to individual players and storytellers). Worse, Aberrant was deliberately mysterious about its metaplot and how it would lead into the events of Trinity; to quote the corebook:

Ideally, the secrets of the various novas and allegiances will reveal themselves over years of play and decades of game time, as the timeline ticks down toward the Aberrant War to come. Accordingly, we're keeping our cards a bit close to our chest with regard to who the "real" good and bad guys are.


Which is nice in theory, but didn't really happen in practice. At least, not in any official supplement. They barely even provided any tools with which an ST could create those answers for herself.

When they did advance the metaplot in the Aberrant: Worldwide books, it was on fairly heavy rails, making it clear that, while the PCs were the center of their own stories, they were not really the center of the Nova Age as White Wolf staff envisioned it. (Possibly the worst offender was "Into the Arms of the Angel of Wrath", the last adventure in Worldwide Phase I, in which whatever the PCs do at the story's climax is plainly less important to history than the first clash of Divis Mal [the guy in my icon] and his opposite number Caestus Pax.)
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From:[info]prodigal
Date:May 17th, 2008 03:51 am (UTC)
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I have to disagree with you on that last part. Mal is brought in to prevent Pax from interfering with the PCs, as well as taking him and Mal off the table while the important stuff is getting done.
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From:[info]prodigal
Date:May 17th, 2008 03:49 am (UTC)
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It wasn't just that you had to play errand boy for an NPC, it was that A: somebody had to die for you to complete the errand, so it sucks to be you if your group hasn't got any NPCs to take one for the team, and B: the errand fails.
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From:[info]aslan751
Date:May 17th, 2008 03:21 pm (UTC)
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Deadlands is one of my favorite RPGs as well for some of the same reasons. It also have an entirely different feel that most others that I would play and therefore gave our group some different options than the standard x-person has been kidnapped, go save them from this group of orcs...blah, blah, blah. It was about the unknown and making a difference and I enjoyed that.

Another great example of another game like that (which ironically failed also) is the 3rd ed incarnation of Ravenloft. There was a metaplot that pushed the line forward and changed the world, shaping it as things progressed through the books, but not so much the characters couldn't feel like they weren't doing something. In fact it was often easy to integrate them into it and give them a sense that they mattered to the commoners around them.
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From:[info]frutoftheshroom
Date:May 17th, 2008 11:12 pm (UTC)
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I'm going to hop on the "Deadlands is awesome yet flawed" bandwagon here.

I never actually played the Weird West for more than a few sessions. However, I ADORE The Wasted West/Hell on Earth. As a player in a campaign that held to the official storyline I never felt boxed in, nor did I feel like my actions weren't important to the big picture. I sort of get bored with campaigns that have players feel the need to come up with ridiculous ideas to solve things anyway. My positive experience could have just been the handiwork of our GM, who has 25+ years of experience.

On the other hand, when I tried to run my OWN Wasted West campaign I ran into a lot of the problems you outlined. The playgroup I had for my campaign was much younger and therefore far less experienced with roleplaying.

Feeling boxed in in Deadlands Hell on Eart never seemed like a problem with a good playgroup.
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From:[info]frutoftheshroom
Date:May 17th, 2008 11:16 pm (UTC)
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Oh, and I wanted to add that while Unity did make me feel like an errand boy at times, having a character die was (I thought) a great idea. Deadlands didn't fuck around.
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From:[info]fuschia
Date:May 18th, 2008 03:32 pm (UTC)

pop pop pop

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I loved our Deadlands campaign, though...probably because we just ignored the overall pre-sold story.

Otherwise, yes, it can all just feel like that awful LARP, can't it?
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