The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferrett's Journal - I Remain Amazed
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I Remain Amazed|
I leave overnight, and what do I return to? Well, 750+ comments and... Mostly civil debate. There were a handful of trolls, of course, but generally even the people who disagreed with me vehemently did so with eloquence and reasoned arguments. I'm actually kind of proud of the Internet, and I thank the folks who've taken the time to speak up.
(That said, we'll have to work overtime to beat my all-time record of 1,031 comments. That was a busy week.)
But a brief plug: If you're totally put off by the con you read about and worried that bad things could happen to you at cons everywhere, I'd suggest visiting WisCon, the world's leading feminist science-fiction convention, which I can guarantee you is completely different. It's coming up in a month, I've heard great things about it from friends, and it's generally the opposite of the kinds of things I generally talk about. I won't be there at all, so if I irritate you, this would be a great place to introduce yourself to what, for you, probably would be a healthy con culture you'd enjoy.
As the duly appointed representative for, well, the entire Internet, I say, "Nono, thank you."
"And, could you stop searching for midget bukkake? I'm getting a headache!"
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 12:42 pm (UTC)|| |
Complete non sequitur:
Wiiiiscon! Best con. Friendly, full of people, thinky all over the place, and there's a bake sale. I heart Wiscon.
May I ask why you chose not to ban the trolls? I was enjoying reading the myriad debates, but stopped when the trolls started inserting themselves and their barely-relevant...dreck into nearly every thread. I just had neither the time, nor the stomach.
Huh. I was considering refraining from the debate.... But if it means breaking your all time record, I think I may need to go poke a few of the threads that interested me and see what happens.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 02:14 pm (UTC)|| |
It was certainly interesting. Some people raised valid concerns - things that -might- have happened, but to my knowledge didn't, etc.
What people on the internet haven't learned, however, is that the moment you start down the path to reductum ad absurdum, your point is completely lost. There were posters who I think had valid things to say. But comparing what went on to the things they did just made me go "Okay, enough of that, next comment."
*I* had a good time. And I've yet to hear from anyone involved who didn't. And really, those are the opinions I care about.
Boobs beat memorizing books any day of the week. BTW The Open Source Boob project is even funnier than Surprize Buttseck.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 03:13 pm (UTC)|| |
I haven't read the comments, but I have seen a lot of my flist reacting (and been emailed links to other reactions), all negative. If I had the spoons I'd be white-knighting for you, because I think there are some misunderstandings that are correctable.
However, I also think some of the criticisms are accurate and useful; male privilege in this sexist society is very easily overlooked as a factor in pressuring people's behavior subconsciously as well as consciously. I also don't think it's very transgressive for people (men or women) to express the desire to feel another person's body; it's not as if that were a well-kept secret desire that is socially inappropriate.
I feel considerable pressure, as a woman, to meet the expressed needs of the people around me: in our society that is my only defined role, whether as a daughter (taking care of aged parents), a mother (taking care of children), or a relationship partner. Making it a social good to express ones needs undoes a part of the social fabric that encourages women to break out of that assigned role.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 04:37 pm (UTC)|| |
I'm curious. I understand 'pressure to meet expressed needs'. So, why not just wear the 'no' button (if you'd been involved), which seems to me to indicate 'Do not express your "needs" at me'.
This to me, clearly seems to be a want, rather than a need. I feel like I should meet people's expressed needs as much as possible, but people expressing wants? Well, that's their problem, I'll think about helping them out, maybe, if there's nothing good on TV. Do you feel differently when someone is expressing something that is clearly a want rather than a need? Or does any expression register to you as a need?
It's been a year or two since I've browsed your comment-busting "Literary Preservation" post, so I'm going through it again (partly to quietly agree with those who picked my favorites, partly to add to my eve-growing list-of-stuff-to-read), but it always felt kinda pointless to add to it. But since April 28 is coming up again, how about, say, a fourth-anniversary repost, just to give us late-comers a second chance to claim our favorites?
Woop, make that a third-anniversary repost. For some reason I thought it was from 2004.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 05:38 pm (UTC)|| |
I'd suggest visiting WisCon, the world's leading feminist science-fiction convention,
My understanding is that WisCon has a capped membership (i.e. they only sell a certain number of memberships and when they're gone, they're gone) so please do check the website to see if memberships are still available (they currently are) and sign up soon if you intend to go.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 06:20 pm (UTC)|| |
What a coincidence!
What do I find only a few entries below this one but today's Think Geek feed. Included in the list is this t-shirthttp://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/a581/?cpg=wnrdf
with a "slide to unlock" graphic across the front.
Charcoal, cotton babydoll t-shirt has the iPhone Slide to Unlock interface printed across the chest. Note that if you wear this shirt to a bar, in all likelihood, folks are going to use it as an excuse to touch your breasts. Don't say we didn't warn you.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 07:56 pm (UTC)|| |
It's a new record, folks!
(That said, we'll have to work overtime to beat my all-time record of 1,031 comments. That was a busy week.)
Looks like you've made a new all-time record! It's been a busy day. ;-)
FYI, while WisCon is indeed a fantastic convention, by saying people who are worried about boob gropage should go to WisCon, that also implies that boob gropage is a common event at other cons. That, thankfully, is not actually true.
"Don't want to deal with sexual harrassment? Go hang out in the ghetto! Everywhere else in the world will keep doing exactly what we're doing."
Wiscon is fucking awesome but holy god, the layers of assumption there are *blinding.* Jesus, what if I can't afford airfare and want to go to a con nearer me? What if attendance has already been capped? The existence of an explicitly-feminist space shouldn't mean that nobody anywhere else has any responsibility to address their problems. Hey, they can just go to Wiscon!
And while I certainly appreciate your final edit to your original post, why didn't you just turn off comment *notification* instead of making all the argument and discussion invisible?
Because I don't like having comments on my journal that I don't look at. People write them, at least in part, to me, and ignoring them seems pretty callous of someone's time.
Apparently you have to freeze each thread individually, and even then you can't stop new ones. If someone knows a better way, tell me.
It's not that I don't want to interact with them. I don't want to ignore them.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 09:42 pm (UTC)|| |
I got linked to your post a few hours ago and was looking forward to reading everyone's responses in detail when I got out of class, since it's obviously a subject that pings different people on different levels - then return to find that you're... so proud of the intarwebz that you cut off the "eloquent and reasoned arguments" of a great many people? Ooookay. I'm pretty sure they didn't get into interesting and prolonged debates just for your viewing pleasure, and were actually, you know, talking to one another about their feelings on this subject.
To be honest? Completely outside whether the boob thing is a good idea or not, that irritates me more than anything else you've said.
Edit: Thanks for turning them back on.
Edited at 2008-04-22 10:25 pm (UTC)
Unfortunately, I'm still doing research to see what can be done - but as I said riht in the fucking post, I think LJ's tools are insufficient to freeze without deleting.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 09:56 pm (UTC)|| |
Just a clarification. I don't know you, so I cannot give a blanket personality opinion one way or another. But don't feel as if you can never come out in fan public again. Maybe it was a mistake. Mistakes are there to learn from, not be crippled by. Just sayin'.
I agree with this. Discourse - read: words and not actions - on subjects like these is extremely important. I can't speak for women who might be triggered, but putting this in the context of having a conversation and lessons learned and etc. etc. would make me feel BETTER.
if you have to just grab the web browser caches. you destroyed an entire world.
Alternatively, you could just let the comments flow freely, and put a note in your post saying that you can't read and thus will not respond to any more posts, thank you and goodnight. It seems the simpler solution to me.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 10:12 pm (UTC)|| |
Scrapping the Open Source Boob Project is one thing, but I think that to completly avoid an event that you enjoy because some vociferous, recreationally-outraged extremists are projecting their fears upon you and are imagining an intent that never existed, nor was implied, just allows people like that to continue that kind of behavior and become more socially handicapped because they are never required to deal with their own issues. I don't think that paranoia and a lack of comprehensive reading skills should be rewarded.
I don't think that paranoia and a lack of comprehensive reading skills should be rewarded.
PTSD and fear of abuse of a flawed idea is not paranoia. There was a lot of inflamed, hyped-up discourse, but there were a lot of excellent observations about WHY this is problematic and even some people taking the middle ground. So fuck you very much. Just because it's not what was intended doesn't make it less damaging.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 10:18 pm (UTC)|| |
you've been efw'd!
I think your original post was incredibly beautiful. In my opinion, there was nothing wrong with what you did. Based on your posts, everything was completely consensual, and everyone involved seems to have exhibited an incredible degree of caring and kindness. But you're right, it's not something that can translate to another scene. It loses a lot. Plus it's a sparkling example of "Ya Hadda Been There."
I'm very sad that you feel you have to absent yourself from ConFusion and next years Penguicon because of other's lack of understanding. I wish you'd change your mind.
|Date:||April 22nd, 2008 10:28 pm (UTC)|| |
PUBLIC. DOMAIN. BOOBS.
What did you expect, man?
I'd just like to say, I'm sorry things devolved as they did from when you wrote this post. You didn't deserve this kind of shitstorm - and nor did zoethe and sheryl67 - and you have my utmost sympathy.
It's not THAT bad. Just think of all the nourishing drama they've gotten out of it.
And best of all, they're perfectly set up to fake their death on the internet. You don't get chances like that too often, no sirree.