You nailed it. Argh!

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Indeed. One of the best I've read in a while.

Ferrett, if you are still looking for stuff you've written to submit as some of your best, I would unreservedly recommend this one.

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Ooh yes! I agree.

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I think that is somewhat true. I think if someone is good with words and comfortable with expressing themselves candidly, there is room for some really great warmth over text that, yes, isn't the same as a grin and a hug, but may be more meaningful. I definitely save certain emails and even IMs that really affect me, for instance.

Also, while you can say brutal things online, it is rare one gets into an actual brawl. :D Perhaps our faces are a little safer for that.

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I think this is very true, but I would argue that video chatting is making it a bit easier to show affection online. I mean, what you're talking about, to me, is the fact that something like 80% of our face to face communication is nonverbal, things such as body language and tone of voice, and lacking that is what I think makes the difference on the internet. Of course, with video chatting, that problem is largely solved. True, you still can't give someone a hug through a camera, but you can smile at them, and speak tender words that mean a thousand times more spoken than written. You can see how your words are affecting them as well, and figure out which things you should say more often, and which things less often, in terms of keeping the irritation at bay and soothing their worries.

That having been said, I've never been in a romantic relationship online, but I do have many close online friends, and it is similar. Those I've done video chatting with I'm arguably closer to than those I haven't. Of course, those I'm friends with in real life are the closest, but that's a given.

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As expressed above, this is one of the best I've read by you... thank you!

You're right, relationships over teh intorwebz are tough... I can't count the number of times I've bargained with the powers that be over trading the hundreds of e-mails that my partner (who resides in New York) and I (in Washington) have passed back and forth for even one day more IRL time. And I gleefully count down the days until he moves here (only 26!)

But on the other side of the coin... the distance has been beneficial in it's own way in our case...

1) When we first ran into each other, we had no intention of being anything but friends. This having been the case, he and I were far more honest with each other than we might otherwise have been. I mean, what was the harm in revealing our freaky, weird sides to each other? It's not like any judgemental attitude meted would be anything more than an abstract thing, right? This unabashed honesty just laid the groundwork for the open, loving communication we share now that we are lovers.

2) The few times we have argued, the online venue has been a boon for us. Responding to text means you have to THINK about what you are saying before it comes out. It forces you to "engage brain before activating mouth". Also, by the time you receive the response to your argument, (if you're like me, at least) your initial ire has died down some. Your counter-point might not even need to be more than "Why are we fighting? This is silly... let's go have cake."

So, as much as I hate being 3000 miles from my man, I can't help but bless the positives that have arisin from the seperation.

As to working remotely... I actually wish my job could be acheived from a remote location. Some kind of futuristic robo-nurse that I could control via VR technology.
*sigh*

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i agree 100%


by the way, I have this theory, that to be real friends let's forget this whole long-distance relationship and lover stuff, but just to be friends online, I think there needs to be a certain amount of face time, that is in-real-human-being-next-to-you face time.

These are just guesses, but for those that you interact with rarely, like, acquaintances,I don't know magic the gathering buddies, seeing them in the flesh once a year is enough, you can stay friends with them with 1 day per year.

For those who you have grown up with like your sisters and brothers and mom and such, you have this banked up face time. You can interact with your mom forever online and never have to meet her again face to face because of this banked up face time.

For someone who is just an online-friend, and you want be real in life friends with them, you have to meet them face to face for an hour or two. And then do it again, at least every month.

I have no theories on why this is so. I don't think it's because of "one thousand chats vs a hug" or the arguments thing. But I know it is true. I have several categories of online friends. There are those who I am close to online, and have met in person, there are those who I am not that close to an me in person and there is "everyone else". Those you never meet face to face are always in a second lower category.

I like living as a hermit. But I know what I know. One has to actually meet people in the flesh and blood, sometimes just one time is enough. then you can go back to your little computer cave and that in the person meeting changes something about the relationship.

Maybe it's our caveman brain working somehow, that primitive part of the brain which doesn't really consider a person "real" until we see them face to face, I don't know.

Yet all of that lovely chatter and twitter doesn't have the impact that a single evening spent in the same room with you, and it generally takes that real-life interaction to crest the barrier and make you one of my best friends.

Right. I sometimes think about the minimum amount of face time required to really be friends. No matter how much of a hermit one is, one must schedule face time.

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That's why my online dating radius is about 10 miles. Who wants to commute to get the snuggles? It's not like I live in a town of 3,000. I'm certain there are hundreds of honeys within 10 miles. I don't have the patience for the ol' LDR at this point in my life.

At the same time, there's something in the witty banter and the anticipation that's fueled by exchanging e-mails or IMs over the course of a few days or even weeks before getting to meet someone. I don't like how that gets extinguished right after meeting. The person you meet is never the exactly person you were writing to. I suppose I'm not the same IRL either. :/

R

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As a long-distance relationship veteran, I agree with this. Some of the nastiest arguments I had with an ex were typed because I wasn't looking at him to see how much I was hurting him. I know I was being a fucker, but I was several hundred miles away and couldn't care less. My current girl and I have yet to have a serious argument and we've been together...fuck, 10 months as a couple and we've known each other 4 1/2 years. If I have to be angry with her when I'm not with her, I think I know enough now to at least do it over the phone.

I'm lonely as hell without her. I'm only a little jealous that she gets to hang out with insanely great people in her free time and I have next to nothing when it comes to in person friends. But I love her to death, I'd marry her if I could, and by god this is one relationship I am not going to let myself fuck up.

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And this is why I refuse to do long-distance relationships. I've got nothing but respect for people who can pull it off. But I know I can't handle it, so I just won't do it anymore.

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Uh...yeah. I'm somewhat familiar with this situation. :)

Not to mess up your clear cut general examples, but I think personality is a major factor. People that tend to make flippant or sarcastic comments are this effect squared. It may be exactly what they'd say face to face, but they underestimate the vital importance of th'I don't really mean this' tone

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Stupid wrong button.

..of that 'I don't really mean this' tone.

This in large part why James and my's experiment with having arguments over IM failed. And he could even hear the expletives from the other room.

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I disagree (surprise! after all I do identify as contrary). I have had friendships that were close and meaningful--and only ever online. The text hugs sent by those people meant as much to me as meatspace hugs from friends at the same level of intimacy. The support they gave me in email and chat when I needed it was just as helpful and caring as what I got from my meatspace friends--maybe more, because meatspace relationships have to draw boundaries so people don't get too close (and take up too much of your time and energy) but text ones are self-limiting.

My online friends sent me gifts and gave me excellent advice; they've given me attention when meatspace people were unavailable. I've grieved for their illnesses and one death, and they've grieved with me when my mother died. For the ones I've met face to face, that hasn't changed the relationship much, although of course it does for lovers.

I've read that healthy relationships require a ratio of 10 compliments to one criticism; it only makes sense to apply that to online and long-distance relationships.

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This essay goes a long way to explaining just why arguing with someone online is ten times more intense than arguing with someone irl. I was involved in a LDR for over a year (due to university), and the most vicious fights we ever got involved in were online. When we met up, there were never any problems; in fact, the things we had argued over just didn't seem important, or even relvevant, to us.

The internet has done something incredibly odd for communication...the physical touch, as you so well put it, has been lost. Yet it's still absolutely vital for healthy relationships and friendships, and increasingly that side is being neglected - people don't always notice that they change when their energy is forced into one channel of communication.

When my ex and I finally broke, it took us five hours in person to actually make the decision. Why? Because although we were both stinging from all the vicious remarks we'd made to each other online, the reality of letting each other go was too difficult to face instantly in person. Relationships become magnified dramatically online, and it's so easy to get sucked in - not to take a step back.

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It's so true. On the strength of the.. what, less than 12 hours? I spent with you that one time, I frame pretty much all the stuff of yours and Ginis I read. Without that, it wouldn't be... well, it'd still be objectively and vaguely interesting, but not nearly half so much.

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This is good, but I want to expand on it. Unfortunately, I've been trying to expand on this vague understanding (which you really did put very well) for years. I constant wonder why, on the internet, lovers hide and do it in secret(not, mind you, that I want them to do it in public, I know places like that--ugh), while bullies are all over the place and many have stymied wizards and moderators by never doing anything you can POINT to and call illegal or harassing, but people all around them are unquestionably up in arms and calling for blood.

And yeah, about the face time. There are a number of people whose tenuous long-distance connections with me are still possible because once, a long time ago, we had face time.

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The reference to wizards gave me a fond trip back down the memory lane of talkers and mushes. Was that your reference? It's interesting that for a lot of the next generation of internet chatters, a lot of the instant communication methods come without some sort of direct moderator to control behavior and, to some extent, guide discussion.


Completely off-topic, but bonus points to you for knowing Atari. At least, I'm assuming you do as you're in the right region of the country and have him on your friends list (Horror24fps). He and I grew up together.

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I'm still occasionally seen on FurryMuck and at least two wizards/former wizards are on my f-list, as well as a handful of characters. (Snooping them out I will leave as an exercise for the reader.)

Atari and I hung around together in 2000, and the experiences with him and the Psi Upsilon "brothers" (some of whom are sisters) are fond memories. We hulloed in passing during Frolicon... I was going to say I hadn't seen him in a bit, but that was incorrect. We keep in touch.

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As someone who's currently in a long-distance relationship, I'd say you've got it pretty much spot on.

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Well said, I have seen many usenet disagreements spiral off into flame wars a million different off-shoots like straws that finally break a camel's back. I also think that the internet can be just a cliquish as the worst middle school cafeteria and comments like "FTW" can make someone feel isolated when in disagreement.

This also happens in a personal blog or LJ where instead of getting "hugs" you can get a long e-mail from a friend or whoever telling you to get your act together and snap in line. It often feels harsher on the internet.

Interestingly your post reminded me of cybersex. I've been having on and off IMs with a woman far away and we have had cybersex several times for over a year. The cybersex is imaginative, long, steamy, and detailed but it also feels strange and distant at the same time. If we were actually able to meet and have sex like the kind we write, it would be very hot. But that is not going to happen and for more reasons than the physical distance between us.

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Yes. This. Coming on top of a long talk with Paul last night where we agreed that things are rougher than we're used to because we're "chafing at the separation" as he put it ... yes. Thank God for Gtalk for free voice chat, at least.

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text is a cold medium that does not transmit affection well
[...]
You can't wrap a hug in words and send it through email.

Really? *hug* I think you can.

I will not disagree that online arguments can get violent and painful (although in-person ones can too). But online interactions can also cut through a lot of physical awkwardness. Most of the people I feel a lot for are ones I met online, very few of whom I have met in person.

It likely depends on personality, viewpoint, and an understanding of the medium. Some people prefer physical contact, some discourse. Some can manage to get their words across well and resolve conflicts peacefully, some cannot. Some prefer being able to see facial expressions, some find them difficult to interpret. And if someone does not understand how the medium works and how people see responses, they can easily insult or come off as distant.

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*a steak*

here. I have sent you a steak in words through email.

Please. Attempt to eat nothing but this food for the next few weeks. See what happens. Perhaps you will even understand that it's not the same thing.

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I understand what you're saying. It could just be my rabid introversion, but when someone offers me affection or consolation online, it feels as good as it would have in person.

I would certainly get very little from text steaks, or from text sex, but certain things do translate just fine for me. *shrug*

(and: a few weeks to eat just one steak? Wow. I'd lose a whole lot of weight...)

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I understand what you mean, merle_. I'm shy, and while I've learned to cope with it in some ways and act outgoing in some situations, sometimes it just doesn't work for me to initiate difficult discussions in person. I need to do it in e-mails or something like that, because I can get the words out in writing with some time to think, when I can't in person on the spot. Once the ice is broken, I'm more able to talk about things in person.

I screw things up sometimes trying to talk about things in person, too, when I speak without enough time to think first, especially if I'm stressed. Being able to communicate at my own pace, thinking and editing, helps.

Not that I don't understand what theferrett (hero to insecure people everywhere!) is saying too, but its more complicated than that.

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Quite so: it is complicated. Which is why I tried to indicate that a lot depends on your personality, preferences, experiences...

I have the same trouble, where after a conversation I'll realize "that didn't come out right". Email is much easier, as is getting to know someone before meeting them. Even if they have strange quirks, you know enough to work around them.

Online fights can hurt quite a lot, but I find it is easier to step back and think before simply striking back (or cowering away in abject horror). If the other person really is just being a jerk, stop talking to them. Unless they are a stalker, it is easier to avoid people online than in person.

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Not new news to some of us, but elegantly stated nonetheless. Thank you!

But isn't the distance-working, or whatever you want to call it, sooooo worth the extra effort?! My wife gets to work from home every single day. Granted, her commute when she was driving in was only 13 miles (i.e. 45-90 minutes in Atlanta traffic, depending on when one is driving), but still. And with gas pricey, a nice monetary boon, too.

It's hard to believe you are only the 44th most popular LJer. Your posts rock, even when I am too lazy to comment and tell you so.

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I'm with you.

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Yes, but...

If you can keep in mind the restrictions of the medium, then you can overcome many of the inherent problems. Adding a smiley is a crude example, but adding some extra words can do the same thing. I really feel that it's the absolute worst in TXTing and IMing, since the brevity is enforced to some extent, removing the ability to add the verbose padding that you can at least insert in your email.

The usual problem is that you are having a flow of information, as in your "That's done" example above, and you forget that to show how pleased you are, you have to flesh it out more, to a "Fantastic! I'm so happy we've got that taken care of today." or whatever.

Or worse, you're in an IM session, and you're in your flow, and your mood changes (for me, usually because a turn of phrase triggers a reaction from me) and the person you're IMing doesn't know that, and then their next words come at you all wrong, and you respond as if they KNEW they hurt you, and then you get people angry on both sides. It takes text communication skills to work through that - and I don't mean the skills of a writer, I mean a specific set of skills geared towards this medium.

I've gone on, I suppose, but it's something I've had to think about since I was 12, and we were all learning how to step on toes, or not. So I've got some thoughts built up about it.

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Well said -- and IM/TXT is quite different from email or posts because of immediacy. Especially if you are in a work environment where you get interrupted, or are holding several conversations at once.

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I'm Tiffany aka Tiffanitsa. I added you to my list recently. Anyway, this was a very thought-provoking post. even as someone who's totally blind, I could understand what you mean. I can't see the people in the room, but it's better than just a chat. I'd never trade time alone with my boyfriend for emails. . It's just worth more and the physical interaction, whether sexual or just friendly, could never truly be expressed online. However, what about things like Skype and the telephone? They're still not the same, but aren't they better than chat? I mean, they could help long distance relationships to grow stronger and could iron out the mishaps caused by an email which may have been read incorrectly.

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I want to present a counterpoint: the annoying co-worker. Some people just get worse with prolonged exposure.

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Wow. That was pretty... insightful. That puts you one rank higher in my "Webcomics author I wish I could meet".

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That was really well written, thank you for nailing a lot of the interactions I see day to day.

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Mostly true, but it's also the case that sometimes arguing over IM is more productive. Having time to think about exactly what you're saying and all the implications can make an argument less annoying than a heat-of-the-moment response might be. Depending on the people.

The coldness of the internet isn't necessarily all bad.

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I suspect much of this is painfully relevant to the issues associated with working with an offshore team, as well.

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