The Ferrett ([info]theferrett) wrote,
@ 2008-03-25 14:37:00
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An Experiment: Can I Type Blind?
So Barack Obama's pastor said some nasty things about America, highlighting two of Barack's biggest vulnerabilities - the fact that he straddles a very uncomfortable racial divide, and that with a name like "Barack Hussein Obama" and a black skin, he clearly must be an American-hatin' Muslim in disguise. As a result, Barack's numbers have plummeted, the Republicans are rethinking who'd be easier to beat, and Barack may ultimately lose the nomination if the superdelegates abandon him. Even if he does win the nomination, what his pastor said may cost Barack the election.

And let me be clear: Barack's my guy. I've given over $300 to his campaign, and just shelled out an extra $65 yesterday. I've read his book, I like what he says, I like how he thinks... And this one pastor's remarks may have torpedoed what I think is the best hope for America's resurgence.

To which I say: Good.

A lot of people seemed to take umbrage at my Ralph Nader post, effectively saying, "Who is this Nader dick? Why should he have any special right to say who gets elected? Why should he have any right to interfere in the smooth machines of the Democratic and Republican parties? I'm not saying that my guy should win, just that Nader should step down if he's going to interfere with a Democrat's election chances."

To which I said, "The right to free speech is one other men have fought and died to keep. And the right for anyone to run for President because he thinks he can make a change in America? Same deal. People should have that right to act, because that's what America is about - everyone getting their say."

Am I thrilled by what the pastor said? Hell no. But I support the right for anyone to say what's on their mind, even if I disagree with it. Even if it hurts My Guy. Even if it stands against everything I believe in. Because that's what free speech is about, motherfuckers.

Free speech is easy when it comes for free. Letting someone stand on the podium and shout, "I think bunnies are cute!" may technically be free speech, but realistically it means pretty much nothing. Nobody's going to argue. But it does mean something when you let the other guy have his say, and what he says goes against your core beliefs, and your ideas might not be compelling enough to defeat. And when the truth as others see it is uncovered, sometimes it hurts others.

Arguing in America shouldn't consist of shoving a pillow over your opponent's face to shut him up, but rather airing out those ideas and opinions and convincing people with your arguments and rhetoric. And that's not just the elected officials, but anyone with a mouth and an idea. The glory of it is that anyone can make a difference, if they convince enough other people.

Does it always work properly? Nah. Ideas can be twisted, the defenders of your beliefs can fail to fight back effectively (calling Mister Kerry), and holding up a baby is always going to be more effective than discussing the fine details of the Bear Stearns disaster. And yeah, I'm convinced that a combination of great spin from the Republicans combined with a cringing terror from the Democrats ("Please don't call me 'liberal,' sir!") has kept the people I think should be running the country on the back foot for a long time.

But I believe strongly that the more opinions we have, the better. It doesn't always work out in the short run. But in the long run? I think it does. (And I think the Democrats' lack of ability to present compelling opinions is what costs them, ultimately.)

My guy may go down, simply because some pastor didn't get the notice that "Hey, the right guy's about to be elected, stop saying uncomfortable things so he gets in." Yet I'm all for his right to ignore that, because the right for each man and woman to say what's on their mind is, ultimately, more important than the spin factory of any election. The pastor had something he felt was important to say. And I say, let the man speak, no matter what the cost, as long as others can still talk when he's done.

At least that's what I'll say when I'm on the podium. You? Say whatever you like. Because I won't tell you to shut up.


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[info]jfargo
2008-03-25 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Your point is good, sir, but now I have an overwhelming urge to just go get my podium out of my workshop (yes, I have a podium, no, I don't know why) and stand at the corner shouting "I think bunnies are cute!"

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You
[info]julesbourglay
2008-03-25 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Shut up.

LOL Great post.

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[info]fax_celestis
2008-03-25 06:45 pm UTC (link)
Even if he loses the nomination, I get the feeling that Obama may make a significant stab at it on the write-in ticket. I know I'll be writing it in, and this is the first I'll have stopped writing in Hugh Hefner.

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(no subject) - [info]cynic51, 2008-03-26 02:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fax_celestis, 2008-03-26 02:29 am UTC (Expand)

[info]hilarityallen
2008-03-25 06:50 pm UTC (link)
WEll, you can say bunnies are cute, but they are also a rampaging species which has interfered with the flora of islands.

Actually, it's quite hard to come up with an entirely neutral statement. Water is wet might work.

And you're right. I hate the BNP (British National Party), but they have a right to try to get heard. (They don't have a right to go out and beat people up, or incite racial violence).

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(no subject) - [info]jfargo, 2008-03-25 07:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]paranoidandroid, 2008-03-25 09:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jfargo, 2008-03-25 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]inncubus, 2008-03-25 10:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]blackcoat, 2008-03-25 11:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cynic51, 2008-03-26 02:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hilarityallen, 2008-03-26 08:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]inncubus, 2008-03-26 09:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fionnghuala, 2008-03-26 11:55 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ewin
2008-03-25 06:57 pm UTC (link)
I was very interested in Obama's speech... read TWT and all that... and found myself realizing, at the end, that he was echoing... me.

Not on purpose and heaven forfend anybody read what I write in a locked online journal, but dude. I said exactly the same things he said about a year ago, in defense of Orson Scott Card saying bigoted stupid shit. "I know this man. I have seen his works. I have seen his life. And these words do not define this man."

I was sort of hoping that the fact that someone so much cooler and with so much bigger an audience than myself would garner more respect for that sentiment. And my flist, excessively Dem-heavy excepting, well, me, were all a-twitter about how glorious and wonderful it was. So I admit I'm a little surprised and disappointed to hear that out in the real world, apparently the whole thing has hurt him.

I don't want him in office, but I sure as hell don't want THIS to be the reason he doesn't get into office. You don't mind hurting for ideals you believe in... well, I don't much like winning by gunning those ideals down.

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[info]guttaperk
2008-03-25 06:58 pm UTC (link)
My guy may go down, simply because some pastor didn't get the notice that "Hey, the right guy's about to be elected, stop saying uncomfortable things so he gets in."

Is that your view of what happened?

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(no subject) - [info]dietcokeofevil5, 2008-03-25 10:07 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]anivair
2008-03-25 07:05 pm UTC (link)
This is the same deal, though. Having the right to do something doesn't mean you're not a dick for doing it. it just means you were within your rights.

We, as Americans, have the right to be dicks and I love that. However, my love of liberty doesn't make me like someone being a dick any more.

On the other hand, I don't actually think his comments were nearly as out of line as most people do. So he bad mouthed America. I do it all the time. Also, bear in mind that the vast majority of the time, when you're bad mouthing "America" you're really talking about the leadership. If I say "This country blows" what I mean is that our leadership blows, not every American.

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(no subject) - [info]kisekinotenshi, 2008-03-25 07:17 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bonerici
2008-03-25 07:24 pm UTC (link)
An educated citizen has an obligation to differentiate between various forms of speech. So for instance, when George W. Bush told republicans in the primaries that John McCain had a black baby with an african whore, it was a lie, strategically placed to ensure Bush's election in the 2000 primaries.

now there are two things an educated citizen can do with such free speech. On one hand, an educated person can repeat it and thus become part of the republican spin machine. Or he can denounce it and explain that it is a lie. Just because a citizen comes out against a particular expression of free speech doesn't mean one is against the idea of free speech.

Indeed it is the obligation of an educated citizen to explain when the right of free speech is being used to distribute lies and propaganda.

When you hear about people saying Barack Hussein Obama is a muslim and a member of the black panthers, if he is "your guy" you don't want to exclaim "bring it on!" When people lie about him you don't want to repeat the lies and say how happy you are.

If someone is guilty of propaganda of distributing bold faced lies, is it your duty to repeat them and then say that this propaganda is truth? Or is rather your duty to suppress the falsehoods by not repeating them on your blog, and when you have to address it to make sure you show it is a lie?

When Kerry got swiftboated and lost the election, bloggers were quick to point out that it was all his fault that he lost, he had no charisma, he was a terrible candidate, it was the party's fault, and it was not at all the blogger's fault who repeated the republican echo chamber lies about what happened to Kerry in Vietnam.

Ralph Nader is a liar. He is not using free speech to address fundamental problems of tweedledum and tweedledee. He wishes to ensure that republicans win the white house in 2008 because he has a deep and abiding hatred of the democrats because of the way they, specifically the clintons, tossed him aside after the elections of 1992. He wanted a cabinet post as a reward for not interfering with clinton's ascent, and when he didn't get it, he was determined to become a spoiler and force a republican victory. And it worked in 2000.

As for pastor wright's speech. I have never seen it in its entirety. Nobody has that I know. For all I know the whole speech might be reasonable, but it doesn't matter. However I have seen or heard, "GOD DAMN AMERICA" that five second clip at least 100 times. Because this entire mess, it is not about free speech, it is not about race it is about a propaganda machine to scare white voters.

I guess it's free speech to listen to "God Damn America" 100 times, but I already know, that we are going to hear that 5 second clip not 100 times, but 1,000 times. I'm not sure I would cheer for it. Cheering for this kind of free speech is like cheering for the Nacho Doritos commercial every time it comes on. This is pure and simple propaganda, it's commercialism of the candidates, and certainly not what the founding father's envisioned as free speech. Oh, of course it is protected. We are protected by the first amendment to be allowed to hear "Ace is the place for the helpful hardwareman", "I can't believe I ate the whole thing", "Plop plop fizz fizz," "Don't leave home without it", and of course "God Daaaaamn America." We'll be hearing a lot of that in the republican ads this fall.

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(no subject) - [info]kmg_365, 2008-03-25 07:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]roaming, 2008-03-25 10:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cynicalcleric, 2008-03-26 02:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bonerici, 2008-03-26 03:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]prodigal, 2008-03-26 06:25 am UTC (Expand)

[info]kisekinotenshi
2008-03-25 07:26 pm UTC (link)
But I believe strongly that the more opinions we have, the better.

I really like this line. It just makes so much sense to me. And not just because of the free speech ideal. I've always liked to ponder what life would be like if everyone agreed about everything. How would we know what was good or bad? How could we judge right and wrong? If you have one element, you have to have one that opposes it, because then what's the point? I can spend days talking about what I believe in, but unless there's someone out there who believes the opposite, it doesn't really mean anything. No one would really care.

Hmm. Guess I'm still in a metaphysical mood from yesterday. Apologies.

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[info]greektoomey
2008-03-25 07:39 pm UTC (link)
And this one pastor's remarks may have torpedoed what I think is the best hope for America's resurgence.

To which I say: Good.


Umm... I think you are conflating the right of people to speak their minds with the responsibility of people to act judiciously.

I don't know what Obama's pastor has said, but if it has negative repercussions for the country (and commutatively for the world) then his remarks are a negative action overall, regardless of his entitlement to make them.

Just because the President has the right to declare a military action does not mean that exercising such a right is always in the country's or the world's best interest.

Similarly, just because Obama's pastor has the right to make whatever ill-advised statements he chooses to utter does not mean that he should be lauded for his words if they amount to an action against the common good. (If that turns out to be the case, which you indicate is probable.)

Free speech is good, but poor judgment is still bad.

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(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-25 07:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greektoomey, 2008-03-25 07:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-25 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greektoomey, 2008-03-25 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cjfringe
2008-03-25 08:17 pm UTC (link)
The solution for how to deal with what Barack's pastor said should be obvious:

Equally Large Boa.

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(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-26 12:15 am UTC (Expand)

[info]kmg_365
2008-03-25 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Even if Hillary were to sweep the remaining primary contests and win by a sizeable margin, I can't see the superdelegates abandoning Obama. They wouldn't want to rip apart the Democratic party.

I think it was on this week's Meet the Press...or was it Fox News Sunday...where a Hillary supporter had raised the superdelegate issue. "Obama is saying that the superdelegates should honor their state's decision!" The person then wondered if Obama will ask Kerry and Kennedy to honor their state's decision since she won Massachusetts. Makes for interesting political theater, I suppose, but it isn't doing anything to help the party overall.

Obama should be awarded the nomination, and Obama will defeat McCain. If he doesn't, I'm sure McCain's victory will be attributed to voter intimidation and tampering. But honestly? Obama should pound McCain.

While the main topic on people's minds is the economy, the media is showing McCain in Iraq. If McCain doesn't want people to think he would represent Bush's third term in office, he needs to start focusing more on domestic issues.

A bit of a tangent from the subject of your post, I know...

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[info]masque12
2008-03-25 08:23 pm UTC (link)
I really don't think the pastor is going to hurt Obama in the long run.

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[info]l_l_u_w_d
2008-03-25 08:42 pm UTC (link)
I don't get into political debates, and I refrain from stating my own political leanings, pretty much always. That being said, I have to say kudos to you, about Free Speech. I am a Navy veteran, who is married to an active duty Marine. Yes, he's been to Iraq. Yes, he's going back again. As one who has served in the military, and one who is married to one who is currently serving our country, and defending that very right, the Right To Free Speech, you made an awesome, excellent post, and I applaude you for it. Thank you for saying it, very much.

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[info]darlox
2008-03-25 08:54 pm UTC (link)
Disclaimer: Obama's not "my guy", but neither is McCain. At this point, I think it's woefully premature for any rational person to be climbing in bed, 'till death-do-you-part, with ANY candidate, because neither has proven what sort of executive they will be. We don't know their tickets, and what sort of ops people they'll surround themselves with. McCain has more Democrat history than Republican history -- a fact which I point out made a lot of LJ'ers swoon over McCain in the LAST election cycle. Obama, whatever charisma he may display, has zero measurable track record on most points that a President must actually address.

So, with that said:

Free speech is not about sitting back and swallowing whatever drivel someone else might have to say. That doesn't make someone a better citizen, or a defender of rights. There are such things as judgment and appropriateness which must be measured. Accepting the wholesale distribution of any given agenda isn't tolerance of free speech: it's propaganda.

What I find most offensive about the pastor's comments is that, at their roots, they're racist. *gasp* Yes, there... I said it. The parts that weren't racist were outright self-defeating and *again gasp* un-patriotic. ("God damn America, etc etc etc...") I'd like to think that in 2008 we've reached the point where we can all take certain things for granted, and propose constructive solutions to problems that don't involve dredging up all of the inflammatory rhetoric that formed the foundation for some of the worst social problems of the last century. Obama's remarks that the "anger is real" notwithstanding -- acknowledging something as legitimate does not make it appropriate, constructive, useful or wise.

There is speech that deserves to be gagged. We don't throw him in jail or fine him, rather, that's the sort of thing that should have been disregarded by all thinking people, and that pastor should have been shoved into the darkest corner the Obama campaign could find for him, within 24 hours.

Unfortunately, most Americans (ok, face it, most humans) are easily led creatures. We react emotionally. We very badly prioritize what's inflammatory over what's actually important. So crap like this flies. The pastors and the Naders of the world hold real power to influence results, because people WANT to be led around by the nose.

But it doesn't make it appropriate. And it certainly doesn't strengthen free speech. The active suppression of intelligence and subjugation of productive agendas doesn't benefit the country, no way, no how. Free speech was based upon a tacit assumption of meritorious speech -- an assumption which certainly no longer holds true in public discourse today.

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(no subject) - [info]greektoomey, 2008-03-25 09:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-03-25 09:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bunny42, 2008-03-25 09:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]guttaperk, 2008-03-25 10:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-03-25 10:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]guttaperk, 2008-03-25 11:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]guttaperk, 2008-03-25 11:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-03-26 02:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]guttaperk, 2008-03-27 11:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-26 12:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-03-26 02:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]meyerweb.com, 2008-03-26 12:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-03-26 01:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]emeyer.myopenid.com, 2008-03-26 02:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]guttaperk, 2008-03-27 11:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]guttaperk, 2008-03-28 08:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-04-01 02:52 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ilgreven
2008-03-25 09:34 pm UTC (link)
See, here's the thing.

Have you really heard the entirety of Pastor Wright's sermon? Did you just hear "God damn America" and tune out right then, and not listen to why he says that?

Did you actually listen to Obama's speech on Tuesday? Every word? Not the sound bites that F*X News or CNN twist and serve you on a silver platter and say "you're lucky we're here to say what you're thinking?"

That is the responsibility of having free speech is not only to allow others to have their speech, but to actually listen to what they have to say. Even if they say something you've already dismissed numerous times, even if you have to dig for the full quote, the real quote, the undiluted by "librul media" quote...it's still your responsibility to actually listen to them, and not just hear what you want or don't want to hear.

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(no subject) - [info]cynicalcleric, 2008-03-25 10:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]miintikwa, 2008-03-26 02:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cynicalcleric, 2008-03-26 02:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]miintikwa, 2008-03-26 02:59 am UTC (Expand)

[info]keith_london
2008-03-25 09:53 pm UTC (link)
To adapt a phrase from one of your presidents, "Free Speech is a beautiful thing!" Increasingly, even in Britain, free speech is being curtailed, for example in the name of "good community relations".

In the case of Reverend Wright's words, I wonder if anyone in his congregation had to guts to counter his words - if they disagreed with him? I think you also have to be quite brave and risk unpopularity by saying what you think.

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[info]jrthro
2008-03-25 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Because that's what free speech is about, motherfuckers.

Bingo!

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[info]cynicalcleric
2008-03-25 10:10 pm UTC (link)
And just because this issue can't end with Obama's speech, Hillary chimes on how she would have left such a church...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080325/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor

Of course, the news is also reporting Obama is related to Brad Pitt and Hillary to Angelina Jolie. Most. Irrelevant. News. Story. About. Presidential. Candidates. EVER.

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[info]inncubus
2008-03-25 10:27 pm UTC (link)
This reminds me of Bill Hick's rant on the flag burning issue that was around a while ago.

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[info]nicked_metal
2008-03-25 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Steinmetz for 2020! (Let's face it, that's how long it's going to take to get you to bend to the pressure, and for us to get your campaign organized.)

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[info]sappersgt
2008-03-25 11:33 pm UTC (link)
While it is everyone's right to engage in free speech, you have made a common mistake.

You think that my obligation to respect his right to speech means that I should respect his speech.

While it is Mr. Wright's RIGHT to say "God damn America" from the pulpit of his church, it is also my RIGHT to say, "I'm not comfortable having a man whose 'spiritual advisor' believes those things having access to nuclear weapons, veto power, the ability to introduce legislation, or the ability to appoint Supreme Court Justices."

That's part of free speech--if you want to sound off with unpopular opinions, the Constitution guarantees you will not thrown in jail or disappeared in the middle of the night, or shot dead by government operatives. It does NOT require your fellow citizens to approve of your opinions, or vote for your ass regardless of what stupid shit your pastor spews.

As some one (way, way left of myself) observed in regard to Rush Limbaugh, the right to free speech is not the right to make a living exercising your right to free speech.

And one final note: Mr. Wright has been consistently speaking these sorts f opinions for twenty years. His church sells DVDs of his most controversial sermons as a fundraiser. Had he miraculously shut the hell up this year, the most damaging bits (ie God Damn America) would still be out there.

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(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-26 12:08 am UTC (Expand)

[info]platypuslord
2008-03-25 11:53 pm UTC (link)
Barack's numbers have plummeted

Intrade puts Obama at 80% to win the nomination. I'm not sure what numbers you're referring to.

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[info]parodie
2008-03-26 02:49 am UTC (link)
I'm not particularly interested in the politics, but I am interested in the broader philosophical/political question of free speech, as a concept. You're claiming to support free speech, all speech, which is a pretty standard (American) opinion, as far as I can tell. So, a question: what about the "fire in a crowded theater" question? Would you support someone doing the rhetorical equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater? In other words, does your position allow for any limits on public speech?

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[info]nagasvoice
2008-03-26 04:50 am UTC (link)
I agree with your right to disagree.
I also agree that we all have a right to find decent news sources elsewhere when the major news feeds are propaganda machines owned by a tiny and shrinking class of people who do not care if they murder, starve, and ignore the rest of us to death.

Problem is that this whole $$ thing required to fight the Spin Cycle has been allowing people to climb into office who have *every* intention of abandoning the Constitution and making *all* of us sit down and STFU. Probably in blindfolds, with chains.

Not terribly profitable in the long run, either, which is why I find that kind of theocracy so puzzling. But I 'pose if you're into the whole Burma-style debacle to rip off anything that isn't nailed down, grab the cheap booze and even cheaper chicks for as long as we'll let you do it, then muzzling everybody who objects makes perfect sense. For a little while.
In the cases of Burma and Tibet, hey, it's run for forty, fifty years. What's a few more, among prison camp statistics?

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