The Ferrett ([info]theferrett) wrote,
@ 2008-03-24 09:27:00
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Things I McWonder
The other day I had some Chicken McNuggets. And I wondered how they would taste to me without an entire childhood memory of McDonalds-as-comfort-food backing it up. They'd probably taste awful to me, but how awful would they be without the electric charge of the Happy Meals and the playsets and Grimace to transform "grease and mustard" into something I'm used to?

Then I wondered how bad the diners had to be beforehand, for McDonalds to rise to power. See, the reason McDonalds was so successful is that until then, there had been a zillion different greasy spoons, each owned by its own Mom and Pop team, and you never knew what you were going to get. Even early on, every McDonalds was supposed to be cookie-cutter identical.

I think we've all seen how bad a gas station can get when there's no competition - unwashed bathrooms, crappy pumps, lousy selection. I can only assume a lot of those diners were as bad, and served awful food because hell, what else is next to the highway? But it's not like McDonalds food is great, either, and nine times out of ten I'd choose a below-average greasy spoon burger to an above-average Big Mac.

So that's the question: Were the diners that bad, on the whole? Or was McDonalds actually good at some point in time, their burgers comparable to actual meat cooked in a diner - not great, but good enough to be above the national average? In other words, did McDonald's get worse, or were the diners so terrible that anything would have been superior, or do consumers rate "consistency" so highly that they'll eat processed shit as long as it's the same shit?

I wonder. I'd like to see a comparison menu between several of the restaurants that McDonalds put out of business and McDonalds' meals as they existed then. Just to know what it was like sixty years ago.

Or maybe it was convenience! Maybe people valued the quickness of the drive-thru, and the speed, to get back on that road and hit the highway, eager to burn up the cheap gas in their newly-purchased-with-post-WWII-flush-economy cars! It's hard to say what it was, back then.

But it'll be interesting, if I am around, to see where we are in forty years. I suspect there'll be a kid saying, "Why the fuck do we drink this Starbucks shit? It's terrible. Were the indie coffee shops so bad back then that this crap rose to the top?" And I think I'll be the old man explaining that yeah, a lot of the independent coffee shops were surly and served awful brew, and Starbucks actually used better ingredients back in the naughts, and we all thought that drinking capucinnos was so kicky that we thought we were trendy to drink the cool brews, and now it's just a part of the landscape.

Hard to say. But I still want to know what a 1952 McDonalds hamburger tasted like. And to see what the service at their competition was like.


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[info]atdt1991
2008-03-24 01:32 pm UTC (link)
For me, it was all about Thursdays being Chicken Nugget days in elementary school. They were nearly identical to the chicken mcnuggets of today, heh, except sometimes you got a really crappy one that made you want to hurl.

I, too, somehow miss the rectangular pizzas with three pepperonis - I used to dump half my fries on it and eat it like a taco.

Twisted, yeah, I know.

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[info]anivair
2008-03-24 01:42 pm UTC (link)
I know that McDonald's didn't really get their fast food feel down till 1948. Before them, they were a lot like any other diner. the big draw, i think, wasn't the uniformity so much as a) the price which was lower than a lot of other places and b) the familiarity. McDonald's, like all other fast food chains, was born out of a culture on the move. You could go to a city ten hours away and eat like you did at home and people liked that (though i can't say WHY).

Price is a big consideration, though. In our current market, the cheapest usually wins and food is no exception. For mass appeal, nothing beats cheap.

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(no subject) - [info]emakelle, 2008-03-24 02:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anivair, 2008-03-24 02:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]on_reserve, 2008-03-24 03:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]frutoftheshroom, 2008-03-24 06:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mananath, 2008-03-24 04:09 pm UTC (Expand)
The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_.
[info]redhawk
2008-03-24 01:42 pm UTC (link)
Sure, you could stop into Lou's Diner, park your car, get out, corral everyone to go inside, and have a perfecty mediocre meal.

Or you can blow through a McDonald's in, say, Indy. Stay in your car, never have to park, and have perfectly mediocre food quickly and be on your way.

In the era that McDonald's rose to dominance America was thoroughly in love with their cars. Once you've established that a McDonald's is literally fast food (first real joint of its kind), now you add the standardization that you were talking about. Every Mickey Dees is the same, no matter if you're in Indy, in Philadelphia, or if you're in Fort Lauderdale. Same menu, same items, probably even the same prices.

Consistency. Speed. Efficiency. Sure, the food wasn't stellar but it was on a par with the drive-ins that they were looking to put out of business.

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Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]oceansedge, 2008-03-24 01:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]redhawk, 2008-03-24 02:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]angielabrie, 2008-03-25 01:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]parodie, 2008-03-24 02:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]funwithrage, 2008-03-24 03:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]directordale, 2008-03-24 04:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]drooling_ferret, 2008-03-24 04:18 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]morgi, 2008-03-24 04:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]darthparadox, 2008-03-24 05:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]bustylis, 2008-03-24 11:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]directordale, 2008-03-25 12:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]bustylis, 2008-03-25 07:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]greatskeeve, 2008-03-24 11:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]gardenwaltz, 2008-03-24 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The differentiator wasn't quality, it was _speed_. - [info]lysystratae, 2008-03-25 03:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]alexmegami
2008-03-24 01:44 pm UTC (link)
It might just be that they were on par with the other diners, but whereas you couldn't drive for another day and eat at Mom-&-Pop-#2,-same-as-Mom-&-Pop-#1, you COULD eat again at McDonald's. You didn't have to risk going to a worse diner.

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[info]merle_
2008-03-24 01:44 pm UTC (link)
As you said, the big selling point was the drive-thru model: instead of having to go inside, you could hang out in your muscle car and get food very, very quickly.

One week A&E's Biography show did a series on the founders of the major fast food restaurants. It was very interesting, and if you can find it, I recommend it.

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[info]calamityjake
2008-03-24 01:50 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, they were cheaper, faster, and quite probably better than most of their competition. Or at least that's what I've read. I wasn't around then, either.

At any rate, I think cheaper, faster, and consistenter were the driving forces in McDonalds' success (as they are now).

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(no subject) - [info]drooling_ferret, 2008-03-24 04:19 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bunny42
2008-03-24 01:53 pm UTC (link)
You gotta factor in price. McDonald's had fifteen-cent burgers, kinda like.... White Castle! They had wholesome food for cheap, and it was reliable. From franchise to franchise you always knew exactly what to expect. Feed a family of four for under $10. What's not to love? It wasn't shit. Wasn't the same as home-cooked, but it was a chance for lower-income families to go out, for a change.

Starbuck's, OTOH, is a fine example of conspicuous consumption. There's nothing at Starbuck's that you can't get elsewhere for less money. You go to Starbuck's because you CAN. It's a status thing, innit? Who knows what people will think of it fifty years from now. I bet there will still be McDonald's, though.

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[info]demiurgent
2008-03-24 01:58 pm UTC (link)
The original McDonalds was a straight hamburger stand, that prided itself on speed and consistency and price. Ray Croc sold them a multi-shake mixer array, saw what they were doing, invested money and got the franchise rights, and hammered at that core concept: fast, consistent, and cheap.

The real competition for McDonalds was never the greasy spoon diner. It was the hamburger shack -- the place where you got a burger, fries, onion rings or the like. Arnold's, from Happy Days. Dick's or Burgermeister in Seattle even today. What McDonalds really did was give you that experience, but you always knew what you were in for, and even compared to the hamburger stands they were much faster. Add in national advertising, and you have real power.

Diners and greasy spoons, by comparison, were honest to God sit down places. You weren't grabbing food, you were going to lunch or dinner. It's an entirely different proposition, and as the world got faster, going out to a diner became less attractive.

These days, if you drive on the highways, you see highway plazas are typically dominated by fast food, with maybe a Sbarros for the folks who want to go in and get off the road for a while. But truck stops have diners in them, because Truckers usually want to be sitting down and not on the road for a good hour or more.

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(no subject) - [info]kidsis, 2008-03-24 02:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cathubodva, 2008-03-24 05:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Dick's - [info]ironymaiden, 2008-03-24 05:07 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]orts
2008-03-24 02:00 pm UTC (link)
I've often wondered the same thing about the historical taste of McDonald's (though, come to think of it, I have only eaten it a couple of times in my life -- it's not my comfort food). But, really, I've always assumed that the success of McDonald's had to do with an early understanding of the power of branding. And of sugar and fat, I guess.

As for Starbucks [sic], that's simple. Starbucks is not in competition with the independent coffee shops. Starbucks does not do coffee, it does "coffee" in the form of warm, sugary desserts in a mug. Sugar and fat again!

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[info]wdomburg
2008-03-24 02:24 pm UTC (link)
Fast. Cheap. Consistent. Familiar.

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[info]mananath
2008-03-24 02:27 pm UTC (link)
Have you ever eaten at a foreign McDonalds? The experience is much different and, in my opinion, much better than dining in the states. The menu is roughly the same but the food tastes better and the service is fantastic (this generally holds true for any American fast food joint that is operating out of the US). While my point of reference only goes back about 22 years or so I like to think when eating overseas that this is the way McDonalds used to be. You end up paying for the consistency, the cleanliness and the service. In other words, they do the basics really well.

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(no subject) - [info]terpsichoros, 2008-03-24 02:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kemayo, 2008-03-24 04:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mamculuna, 2008-03-24 03:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]frutoftheshroom, 2008-03-24 06:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]frutoftheshroom, 2008-03-24 06:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mananath, 2008-03-25 03:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kisekinotenshi, 2008-03-24 08:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mananath, 2008-03-25 03:02 pm UTC (Expand)
Cleanliness - [info]bustylis, 2008-03-24 11:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rmadman, 2008-03-25 04:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mananath, 2008-03-25 03:00 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bonerici
2008-03-24 03:11 pm UTC (link)
price price price price speed speed speed speed speed

Price Speed

mcdonalds was the very first assembly line fast food. Before mcdonalds, here's how people got their food

1) order
2) write it on a piece of paper
3) give to short order cook
4) cook decides how to cook meal
5) cook creates meal
6) gives meal to server
7) server gives meal to customer

After mcdonalds here's how it worked

1) customer must select one of the available options. No substitutions.
2) worker places preformed premade presized pieces of factory created food into premade pretimed cooking aparatus. There is no chef
3) worker retreives food and hands it to customer

Speed. Time.

Why are mcdonalds breaking ground in germany today? Why can you walk down the champs elysee and get a hamburger when right next door is some of the best food in the world? Price and speed.

As for flavor, there are 4 ingredients: 1) Fat, 2) Salt, 3) Sugar, 4) Artificial Flavorings. The natural flavors are all gone because the food has been sterilized and has no remaining natural flavor.

Taste has nothing to do with mcdonalds success. McDonalds is the Henry Ford of food. The model T succeeded not because it drove better than the competitors but because of the assembly line. McDonalds created the fast food assembly line.

I'm sure I'm repeating what everyone else in the comments is saying, this is common knowledge.

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(no subject) - [info]bonerici, 2008-03-24 03:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 03:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-03-24 04:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 05:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darlox, 2008-03-24 05:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]khiron1416, 2008-03-24 04:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bonerici, 2008-03-24 04:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 05:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bonerici, 2008-03-24 05:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 05:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bonerici, 2008-03-24 05:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 05:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bonerici, 2008-03-24 05:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 06:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]artandge, 2008-03-24 06:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theferrett, 2008-03-24 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]artandge, 2008-03-24 08:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bonerici, 2008-03-24 07:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]artandge, 2008-03-24 08:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]terpsichoros, 2008-03-24 05:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2008-03-24 05:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kisekinotenshi, 2008-03-24 08:06 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]minivet
2008-03-24 03:15 pm UTC (link)
Other people upthread have gotten across the same basic point, but Neal Stephenson put it very well in Snow Crash:

In olden times, you'd wander down to Mom's Cafe for a bite to eat and a cup of joe, and you would feel right at home. It worked just fine if you never left your hometown. But if you went to the next town over, everyone would look up and stare at you when you came in the door, and the Blue Plate Special would be something you didn't recognize. If you did enough traveling, you'd never feel at home anywhere.

But when a businessman from New Jersey goes to Dubuque, he knows he can walk into a McDonald's and no one will stare at him. He can order without having to look at the menu, and the food will always taste the same. McDonald's is Home, condensed into a three-ring binder and xeroxed.

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[info]mamculuna
2008-03-24 03:43 pm UTC (link)
I first had McDonald's when I was in college, so I remember the days before. They were...adventurous. I don't remember chains of restaurants* before Mickey D, so each place was its own experience. Most were much better, but some were terrible. I never have eaten regularly from the chains, but when you're traveling, it's convenient to know what to expect.

*except Stuckey's which was awful, as I recall--very overpriced and low quality.

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(no subject) - [info]lysystratae, 2008-03-25 03:51 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]kenshi
2008-03-24 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Never underestimate the power of human risk-aversion behavior.

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[info]on_reserve
2008-03-24 03:50 pm UTC (link)
There was an interesting mini-documentary on CNBC about McD's last night. Other major parts of McD's appeal were cheapness and consistency.

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[info]sylphslider
2008-03-24 03:50 pm UTC (link)
Don't forget cost. McDonalds was probably several times cheaper than the greasy spoon diners.

I'd assume a 1952 McDonalds hamburger tasted pretty good. The food served at non-American McDonalds is different (and often better) than the crap we get. It's all about what the market will tolerate, etc. etc. and today the market will tolerate a lot.

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[info]directordale
2008-03-24 03:55 pm UTC (link)

When I was living in Japan, there was a "fancy" McDonalds in Shibuya that I ate in once or twice. It was more expensive than the usual McDs but it sleek modern furniture, bigger black angus beef burgers cooked to order, and buns made with fancier bread. I can't remember if the fries were the same or not. This was in 2002-2003, so I'm not sure if it is still there or not. The other McDonalds in Japan were identical to their U.S. Counterparts in taste with a few regional foods thrown in like soy burgers and croquettes. The Japanese really like croquettes.

There still seem to be a lot of people in the United States who are, shall we say, lack any spirit or desire to be have culinary adventures. They would rather good for the tried and true over branching out. This is the heart of the success of every fast food franchise including the more "upscale" ones like TGIF, Applebees, The Cheesecake Factory, etc. The menu will feature the same items everywhere and the food will taste the same no matter where you go.

I have a friend who originally hails from Minneapolis-St. Paul area and she says many of her friends from back home are like this and it is hard to find places to eat when they come to New York. We were eating in an Italian restaurant once and she said her friends would be unsure there. She said they might eventually order Spaghetti Bologonaise but only after asking lots of questions even though it is only pasta in meat sauce.

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the culinarily unadventurous - [info]terpsichoros, 2008-03-24 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: the culinarily unadventurous - [info]directordale, 2008-03-24 07:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]axejudge, 2008-03-24 06:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kisekinotenshi, 2008-03-24 08:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kamagurka, 2008-04-01 02:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]namedphoenix
2008-03-24 04:37 pm UTC (link)
AND! The weirdest thing is that McDonalds was a HUGE treat for everyone back in the day. People didn't even go once a week. I suppose it is kind of like "Outback Steakhouse"- I certainly don't go there all the time, and neither does anyone I know, but they still are incredibly powerful.

I don't, however, see Outback getting like McDonald's. I can't possibly imagine the scope of coincidences that made the world ready for fast-food domination.

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(no subject) - [info]indy_was_here, 2008-03-24 05:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]directordale, 2008-03-24 07:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kisekinotenshi, 2008-03-24 08:17 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sclerotic_rings
2008-03-24 05:17 pm UTC (link)
And now you see why Borders got as far as it did in its own niche. True, Borders's current fiscal woes are its own fault, and may have been accelerated by policies that made sense when it wasn't one of the only games in town, but I understand now that both Borders and Barnes & Noble made such inroads into the bookselling industry solely because the local Frumpy Fiftysomething's Used Books and Quiet Desperation Emporium franchises were so damn bad. 99 times out of 100, if you run into someone who moans overmuch about a bookstore that bought the farm ten or fifteen years ago, that person was either an employee or a regular moocher at the open mike poetry nights.

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[info]theinfamousmom
2008-03-24 05:20 pm UTC (link)
I dunno about Mickey D's, because they were a very rare treat for my brothers and me in the 60s (truthfully, my dad was way more in favor of eating at the Dog & Suds or A&W if he was going to take us out for fast food of any kind). I'm old enough to remember when McD's advertised a full meal and change back from a dollar, at least.

But I'll tellya, I ate at one of the original Kentucky Fried Chicken places, in Kentucky, and the stuff that chain serves today relates to the original like a styrofoam food container relates to the stuff inside.

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(no subject) - [info]jcochrane, 2008-03-24 11:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]theinfamousmom, 2008-03-25 12:19 am UTC (Expand)

[info]wizwom
2008-03-24 05:20 pm UTC (link)
Oddly, in the 70s, when we went on a vacation, we tended to eat in diners, only rarely stopping at McDonalds.
Likely because Dad was strung out from driving, and wanted a break.

I suspect that McDonalds' Franchisees have chosen to use the lower quality ingredients, rather than raise prices, in a misunderstanding of the true competition.

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Sold their souls to Satan...
[info]inncubus
2008-03-24 05:49 pm UTC (link)
It's some sort of bizzarre magic anyway.
Most roadside cabins, cafes, resteraunts etc have a superior burger, and at least for the cabins it's a similar spped and process.
Despite all this, even though I don't eat there more than maybe once a year, perhaps less, I still sometimes get a real craving for McDonalds. It makes no sense; I even prefer Burger Kings product(which is another mass produced fast food place of the same type), I'm not in any sort of rush, and have little fear of slightly less clean premises (though there is a burger stand that shows up as the clubs shut that strikes fear into the hearts of any but the most drunk).

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[info]orikes13
2008-03-24 07:28 pm UTC (link)
My guess is that it's a combination of a couple of things.

A. McDonalds probably did taste better 30-40 years ago. For example, I remember being excited about going to Pizza Hut back in the 70's because it was really good pizza. The crap they make now doesn't even come close to comparing to what they used to make.

B. People as a general rule like knowing what they're going to get. I doubt all the greasy spoons of yesteryear were so bad that McDonalds outshined them, but there was no consistency from restaurant to restaurant. When given a choice between an unknown and a known, people generally go for the known.

It drives me nuts. I hate going on a trip to another city and have the people I'm with suggest a chain restaurant that I could go to here at home. Why the fuck would I travel hundreds of miles to go to TGIFridays?!? But I know folks who won't try a restaurant they've never heard of, so invariably flock to the chains you find in ever damn city of the country.

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(no subject) - [info]jcochrane, 2008-03-24 11:42 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]yoliesraft
2008-03-24 08:13 pm UTC (link)
My boyfriends mother is always disappointed when she goes to McDonald's. She says it was much better when she was a child. She's 53 now.

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