The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferrett's Journal - Attitudes and Memes and Money
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Attitudes and Memes and Money
Yesterday, I wrote about how our attitudes affected our ability to actually find what we wanted – in particular, with regards to money and sex. And some people had this to say:
“What I don't like about the ‘anything's possible’ philosophy is that it can be used against people who really do face significant barriers. Being born in a refugee tent in Darfur is a very different experience from being born into a middle class family in Canada.”
“This post is relevant mostly to the middle and maybe working class. People stuck in generational poverty? Something else.”
And to a certain extent, I would agree. Certainly, where you’re born puts a cap on what you can achieve; in war-torn places, sometimes the difficulties of simply staying alive will occupy most of your time. Someone like me, who was raised in an upper-class family, will have access to more capital and opportunity than someone raised in Watts, and thus will be able to get richer a lot quicker.
Yet I don’t think that negates what I said. I think that poor folks who are raised to see money will probably be richer than their peers, and have a much better chance at escaping generational poverty.
The problem? Almost nobody in their peer group can teach them how to see it.
See, I’m uncomfortable with the idea of removing all responsibility from poor people everywhere. Yes, the philosophy of “see it, get it” can certainly be used as a punishment for people who really do face significant barriers, and frequently is by the Republicans – but the converse attitude, often pushed by the Democrats, seems to be, “Well, if you were born poor, you’re fucked, and ain’t a thing you can do but wait for the government to come and pull you out of it.”
I think part of the problem with poverty is that when you put a lot of poor folks together, the natural tendency is to gravitate towards a collective attitude of helplessness. (Just as when you put a lot of rich bastards together, the natural tendency is to gravitate towards smugness.) It’s hard for people to get along when they’re saying to each other, “You know, Phil, the reason you live in a shit apartment is you have shit work ethics. If you stopped calling in sick every third day and forcing the supervisor to ride you about everything, maybe you’d do a little better.”
That’s tough. People get mad. It’s a lot easier to console them by bitching that their bosses suck and we’re all great workers, and the world is down on us. Which is, frankly, pretty easy to do because often their bosses do suck and the world is down on them. And so they concentrate on the things they can’t change, while ignoring the things they might be able to change.
Plus, the interesting thing about making it is that it involves more than just working hard. I wound up living with some folks who were genuinely poor – as in, “$9,000 in an entire year’s worth of income for two working folks” – for a couple of years, and the funny thing was that I noticed some real differences between the guy who was raised by rich parents and the folks who were raised by poor parents.
These folks were awesome at work. They showed up on time, did their job well, and often went the extra mile. In terms of accomplishing what they were supposed to do, they did it spectacularly… Which is when I suddenly realized that merely “Doing your job” was not enough.
Part of the attitude was the job. I carry with me an attitude that my job owes me more than a paycheck – it owes me a career path. Whenever I’m somewhere, I’m constantly thinking, “Is this still putting me where I want to be five years from now? Where can I go from here? What am I learning for future jobs? Is this place financially healthy enough that I should continue to stay here, or is it gonna collapse from under me?” And that was just as true when I was working for near-minimum wage at Waldenbooks and Grand Union grocery store as it was when I worked at Borders headquarters as a buyer.
The folks I lived with? They rarely thought about skills or working up, and even when their boss was pretty notoriously crappy, they never thought about looking for another job until they got fired from this one. They had a dedication to a paycheck, and what I perceived to be an almost dysfunctional relationship with their superiors.
They didn’t plan their jobs. They just got them. Even when they had time to look for other jobs, the moment they were done with work they were off work.
They didn’t plan their money, either. I’m paranoid to the extreme – at the nearly-young age of 38, I have life insurance in case I die so that Gini can pay off the house. Even when I wasn’t saving money because I didn’t have enough to save, I felt the crushing weight of fear upon me that damn, I should be saving cash because bad things will happen.
My friends didn’t feel this pressure. They had the attitude of, “If it happens, it happens.” There were often times they could have avoided calamities by doing a bit of paperwork here, preparing a little here, and they didn’t, because the future was not a controllable substance to them. To them, the future came in waves, as unpredictable as the sea, and it often smashed them down for no reason.
Me, I could see the storms coming. I often said, “Look, you need to do X or Y is going to happen,” and they agreed in theory but never in practice, putting it off for another day. Then Y happened and they were genuinely flabbergasted.
If I were in their situation, I’d still be poor – I make no bones about that. I’m not telling you I’d be making $110,000, living on my yacht. But I’m almost certain I wouldn’t be as poor, and I’d be a little better insulated against the random shocks of life simply because I’d plan.
(Plus, there’s often a distinction between “doing what you’re paid to do” and “doing what makes your boss happy,” and the latter is far more important than the former. But I can’t say for sure what these folks did.)
Now, obviously, one poor couple does not make a coherent study. But I’ve seen some of those behaviors cropping up again in the poorer folks I’ve known, including some formerly-rich folks who fell down along the way. As such, I think that attitude does play some significant part in your personal wealth.
Here’s the thing, though: I don’t think of my behaviors as being something I stumbled upon because I was so incredibly smart. Note that I said “Rich people tend towards smugness,” and just as people in bad situations like to believe that things are out of their control, people in good situations want all the credit.
So let me say it loud and clear: I lucked out. I was taught these ideas by a culture that believed in these things, and these attitudes turned out to be helpful. Which is why I think on some level, “wealth” is a meme that’s transmitted to others, a collection of indoctrinated responses that actually help one collect and retain money.
The interesting thing is that I probably didn’t retain it as well. I’m an income level below my parents, and I never finished college because I was lazy. To a large extent, I’m a failed memetic transfer, a step down on a ladder of success.
I think one of the issues that would actually help to get rid of poverty is to define those attitudes and approaches that actually help, and do our best to transmit them to the poor. It won’t magically solve everything, of course – anyone who thinks that any one solution can turn an urban blight into a paradise is a simpleton – but at least some of poverty is due to a lack of understanding about money. The reason so many folks are losing their houses right now is because they didn’t understand the first thing about buying a house, and purchased something on a crappy loan that they should have known they couldn’t afford.
That, at least, is something that we can fix.
I said earlier that poor societies tend towards an attitude of helplessness. That’s not always true. Some poor societies manage to keep a positive attitude – which is awesome. They keep telling everyone that we’re gonna get out of this, we’re going to make this place better, we’re going to improve what we can and fuck the world if it tries to stop us.
That’s a tough attitude to keep in the face of helplessness. Helplessness is always easier, because it doesn’t sound like blame when phrased the wrong way. It’s a real hard thing to say, “Yes, the cards are stacked against you, but there is a way to play the game to maximize your chances.”
‘Course, that’s just all my opinion. You know how it is.
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![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/8926302/59782) | | From: | kibbles |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 02:53 pm (UTC) |
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Wow. What a simplistic, and nearly offensive view of poverty in our society in particular. I'm still just thinking you haven't had the exposure to understand. But your attitude is exactly why poor people are treated as sub human. Because, you know, if they just tried a bit harder, or were a bit smarter, they'd take their bootstraps and yank their happy asses right up.
It's a complex problem.
I think one of the issues that would actually help to get rid of poverty is to define those attitudes and approaches that actually help, and do our best to transmit them to the poor. It won’t magically solve everything, of course – anyone who thinks that any one solution can turn an urban blight into a paradise is a simpleton.
Yes, indeed, it is a complex problem. If only someone would have stated that somewhere within the body of the essay!
Yeah. The reason I consider myself middle class in spite of having worked minimum wage jobs for the past five years is because my attitude towards money is that I will end up having it. That's very different than what I see in most of my coworkers.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/59676249/440417) | | From: | jenk |
| Date: | January 4th, 2008 07:28 pm (UTC) |
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Heh. My folks regarded themselves as middle class because they owned a 2-bdrm 1-bath home with sheetrock and aluminum siding and indoor plumbing and running potable water and (gasp) forced-air heat that they bought in 1964.
This makes more sense when you realize they both grew up in the sticks during the Depression. Mom had an outhouse until she got her first apartment - which she paid with using the $1/day she earned from cleaning houses. :)
I think that the attitude acquired in the cultures that have generational poverty is absolutely one of the biggest problems. I spent many years working with welfare moms and then their kids and eventually their grandkids at a community college. I saw some escape, who really didn't have any special gifts except the belief that they could do it. I saw many,many fail and quite a few wind up in jail--because they were convinced that was what life was like. It was that fatal lack of hope that is the real killer--the expectation that life will always be as bad as it is now, and there's nothing you can do about it. There was sort an assumption that if the car broke or your kid was sick, that meant you just gave up and didn't try to pass the class, even though other single moms with similar problems took that as a single (though horrible) problem to be solved. They looked at bad grades as the result of fate, not of lack of studying. It was partly that belief about the nature of the world that controlled them and kept them in difficult lives, generation after generation. And they were wonderful, intelligent women, who truly loved and worked hard for their kids, but they just didn't believe there was a way out. But there was, because some people found it.
Edited at 2008-01-03 06:33 pm (UTC)
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/48826895/440417) | | From: | jenk |
| Date: | January 4th, 2008 07:29 pm (UTC) |
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My mom quit school after 8th grade because she was making "a whole dollar a day cleaning houses and that was a good job to me at the time."
I think that says something about the expectations she'd acquired at the time.
I really hate the "generational poverty" mantra, for exactly the reasons you cite. Yes, it does exist, and yes, it can be difficult to overcome, but as somebody who grew up around that (not in it, thank God), NEVER underestimate people's desire for something better.
You are right, it all comes down to thinking ahead. Some are capable of it, some aren't, and honestly it's got nothing whatsoever to do with class. I know plenty of rich entitled kids who had better be grateful Mummy and Daddy will be leaving them the house.
I mostly agree with you here; my grandparents were working class, but had high aspirations. They ended owning their own homes, and sent (some of) their children to college.
But this was in the UK, and they had the help of grammar schools - free education for bright, poor youngsters. These days, grammar schools barely exist, and you've got to be lucky in where you live to be sure of a good state education.
As a good Socialist Briton, I believe that the individual and the state have a part to play in the eradication of poverty. The individual has to make use of opportunities presented (to get an education, to go for a better-paid job, etc.), but the state also has to provide some things (education, healthcare, etc.).
You can't do anything for some people; whether rich or poor they'll just moan about how tough life is and not do anything. However, we can do our best to provide people with opportunities and aspirations to help change that for those who're capable of listening.
I said this:
"I think one of the issues that would actually help to get rid of poverty is to define those attitudes and approaches that actually help, and do our best to transmit them to the poor."
I probably should have been more explicit, since the capitalist system we have makes money off of the unskilled financial nature of many of the poor. This sort of training would have to come from the gummint.
And I also agree that the best you can do is to give people a chance. A lot of them will ignore it, but that's not something you can fix.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/65798754/41492) | | From: | towanda |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 03:15 pm (UTC) |
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I agree, that its not right to take all responsibility from the poor and I probably often sound like that when I talk about poverty because I want so badly to convince others of the barriers that are invisible to them. So its a good reminder for me.
But I have no illusion that America is a meritocracy. The playing fields are just not as level as we'd like to believe.
Each class--upper, middle and lower--has hidden rules of language, culture, values. And whether you're going up or down the ladder, when you arrive in a class different than your own, you have to re-learn everything from a new perspective.
And that is the barrier that keeps lower classes from just "getting off their asses and getting a job" as I often hear people in my class say. Like you said, where do they learn that its inappropriate to wear baggy pants to work or to wear a hat during the national anthem?
Either from their relatives/peers or from government agencies supporting mentoring programs, assistance programs, Headstart programs, AmeriCorps programs, etc. We expect the lower classes to know how to get along in the middle class but many people are not willing to get into the neighborhood and teach them how to be middle class.
The other barrier that I talk a lot about is that our economic system has become exceedingly complex over the last 50 years. The reason that people who make 6 figures are barely able to stay afloat (besides excess and keeping up with the Joneses) is because even our upper classes are having a difficult time learning the new complexities of basic money management. These skills are not passing from parents to children in even the highest levels of society.
So until the upper and middle classes get a hold of it, the poor have no hopes of knowing why an ARM is probably not the best choice (homeownership--essential to breaking the cycle of poverty) or how to identify an investment scam (savings and investments are the key to individual economic growth).
That's why the state pays me the 'big bucks' to go out and teach financial literacy. :)
Each class--upper, middle and lower--has hidden rules of language, culture, values. And whether you're going up or down the ladder, when you arrive in a class different than your own, you have to re-learn everything from a new perspective. And that is the barrier that keeps lower classes from just "getting off their asses and getting a job" as I often hear people in my class say. Like you said, where do they learn that its inappropriate to wear baggy pants to work or to wear a hat during the national anthem?
Exactly. I was raised in an area where I understood the rules, and understood how the game was supposed to be played. I just sat down with my Stepdad at Christmas and had him explain mutual funds to me, which was way more valuable than any book I could have read - which I know, because I read books. I have no illusions that I'll be wealthier in the future because he said, "You have how much in savings? God, chuck that into a money market fund!"
Where would I have gotten that elsewhere? Um, not anywhere I can see. At least not with the same force and clarity.
The issue is, at least in some form, a matter of training. How that training gets done, or whether it can be done given our current incentives (as you stated, the middle and upper classes don't care about the poor, which sucks), is the issue.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/84808561/425443) | | From: | shandra |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 03:24 pm (UTC) |
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I think you've identified one factor that may separate people in a position to earn more money from other people in a position to earn more money, sure. And I definitely agree that more education for poor people (something difficult to achieve the way US educational funding is structured) is a good idea. But the idea that poverty is largely a lack of individual imagination or vision still reads to me like one of the great American myths. It especially amazes me that this view persists in a country in which almost half of personal bankruptcies have medical bills as a factor. Also a country in which a post-secondary education can result in tens of thousands of dollars of debt, and where the minimum wage and earning power has gone down. This is a good article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYZ/is_4_30/ai_111933181 - the third page I think (close to the start anyway) goes over the issue of job loss and wages in the US: "Yet it can be demonstrated that irrespective of the specific characteristics that Americans possess, there simply are not enough decent paying jobs to support all of those (and their families) who are looking for work. During the past 25 years the American economy has increasingly produced larger numbers of low paying jobs, jobs that are part-time, and jobs that are lacking in benefits (Seccombe, 2000). For example, the Census Bureau estimated that the median hourly earning of workers who were paid hourly wages in 2000 was $9.91, while at the same time approximately three million Americans were working part-time as a result of the lack of sufficient full-time work being available (U.S. Census Bureau, 2001). In addition, 43.6 million Americans were lacking in health insurance, largely because their employer did not provide such benefits (U.S. Census Bureau, 2003b)."
Very, very well put.
And thanks for the link.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/16411210/890352) | | From: | beguine |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 03:25 pm (UTC) |
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I think you have something there, but I think part of the problem is knowing what to do as well as having the attitude that you can do it. I have a lot of friends from pretty mixed financial backgrounds in college, and it seemed like the ones that were coming from less privilege were the ones that had a harder time figuring out what they needed to do to get what they wanted. It wasn't that they were less intelligent, or less motivated to work hard (more motivated, in many cases), or in most cases even that they were less aware of what they WANTED to do. It's just that many of them didn't know that they needed to be looking for internships/lab jobs/hospital volunteer work if they wanted a resume that would actually get them grad school/medical school/whatever. On the other hand, kids whose parents were professionals already knew that and were looking for those opportunities early. The kids coming from less money were lucky if after the first time their luckier friends looked at them funny when they said they didn't have an internship lined up for the summer, they gritted their teeth, swallowed their pride and embarrassment, and made sure they had that internship lined up for next year (thus losing only a year of time). A lot of times they instead got frustrated, decided they didn't have what it took after all, and retreated. I suppose the good news is that college can serve as a financial success meme transfer opportunity, if the group one falls into is socioeconomically diverse. Some of the minority programs function the same way, teaching success patterns by requiring their members to do lab work or rotations and in the process teaching them what they're going to need to get ahead.
Before anyone criticizes me for generalizing, let me just say I was one of the exceptions. I wanted to get into medical school, and only one of my parents started college. I'm lucky my mom, who when she started had only hazy ideas of how one went about going to college, solved the problem by going to the library, finding a book called "Getting Into Medical School", reading it cover to cover and then making me do the same. If I hadn't gone to school with that roadmap transplanted into my head, I probably would have been one of the ones with great grades but no other relevant experiences, and I only hope I would have been one of the relatively lucky ones that learned by imitation of my more privileged peers fairly early.
I think you have something there, but I think part of the problem is knowing what to do as well as having the attitude that you can do it.
Absolutely. Where do you get taught this?
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/94319566/4006408) | | From: | cuglas |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 03:34 pm (UTC) |
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My mom's family was very poor and my dad's family was rich. (They made a ton of money in a construction business that my grandfather and dad started and built.)I see this in my mom's relatives. A huge part of the problem with social mobility among the poor is that they can't see opportunity. If you can't see it from where you are, you can't figure out how to get there. We're doing a terrible job educating poor kids on the basic rules of how to get out of poverty and stay out of poverty. I live near East St. Louis. (My Minnesota in-laws insistently refer to where I live as "the white section of East St. Louis.") A lot of those kids don't have the slightest idea how to get a good job or where those jobs are. They don't know anyone who has those jobs; there's no uncle who can help them get on at the steel mill. If you can't see the middle class from where you are, you can't get there. You're also more likely to write off "having money" as a function of luck. I wish our education system did a better job in career and vocational training and in what home ec teachers call "consumer home management."
"You're also more likely to write off "having money" as a function of luck"
Well, it *is* luck. 99.9%, anyway...
But sometimes 0.01% is still worth fighting for.
Re what you said were some common comments on your post yesterday:
I think maybe some people are misconstruing the meaning of "anything's possible." What is my wildest dream is certainly not yours, nor is the dream of a Darfur refugee the same as mine. But people do have dreams, and whatever theirs is, it's attainable.
I think people "stuck in" whatever circumstances they find themselves do have the ability to make their dreams come true. No matter what it is. Now for someone, that might be clean, running water. For someone else, it might a double-wide trailer they've had their eye on. For yet another, it might be something not material at all - to be able to paint, maybe, or sing, or to drive a race car. And of course, there is the dream to be a millionaire, or to be famous, or whatever it is that keeps reality shows a booming cottage industry.
Anyway, I guess I'm seeming a little Pollyanna here, but I refuse to live in a world where not everything is possible. What kind of hope is there in that?
These entries have been really interesting, thanks for writing them.
Re: Poor countries....
Have you ever seen "Life and Debt", the documentary about the economy of Jamaica, and how many farmers there were put out of business from richer companies/corporations coming in and being able to under-sell them?
I don't 100% agree with you, but man alive this is better than just doing the privilege meme. Thanks for the brain food.
I agree with certain things you said but not others. Or at least I see some of the barriers.
I also come from very fortunate circumstances and this has allowed me a lot of luxuries. I was able to attend a top-college and come out debt free. Beyond that I was able to study what I wanted because my parents encouraged me to get a degree for the sake of education. Not for getting a killer career. My degree is in theatre and my socio-economic background allowed me to try and start a directing career without being a streotypical starving artist. I was able to volunteer and intern with parental support. Now I am in grad school for my M.F.A in Directing and applying to law school because I see that I will probably not be able to make a career as director. However I will be able to stay involved with theatre and make a good living as a lawyer.
Like many of my grad school classmates I have a job but there is an interesting thing that happens. Many of my classmates think they have to get typical jobs like waiting tables or being a bartender. These might pay well but I see them as dead-end careers. It can be fun to do when you are in your 20s but after a while, it is not going to take you anywhere. Last year I worked in publishing. Over the summer I got a job for a national non-profit as a local supervisor. They are tougher jobs to do than staking books at a store but they look better on my resume especially because of my age.
The problem with "generational poverty" is that very few people know how to teach their kids how to navigate in the world. Like the roommates you mentioned. No body ever told them about resume building or looking for jobs that have advancement trajectories. Stocking selves does not lead to promotions like being an entry-level assistant at a publishing company or other job. Plus the resentment towards authority is built in.
There are other advantages to coming from the middle and upper classes. Two teenagers are caught smoking some Marijuana. One is from a suburb in Westchester county and the other is from Harlem. They are going to have radically different experiences with the law. Kids from advantaged backgrounds have to fuck up a lot more before they see a negative consequence for their actions. Maybe every once in a while a rich kid will have the book thrown at him as a symbolic sacrifice to equal justice under the law but often they get away with almost anything under the sun. They go to rehab and then write college essays about it to impress the people at the Yale admissions office.
Yes the poor must be taught that they can beat ingrained poverty and lack of circumstances to get out of it. And I think government intervention and good and safe public schools are the best way to do this. Give them after-school programs and tutoring. Give them a second chance if they fuck up. Don't send them to jail as an adult offender. Teach them that they have a greater chance for success for studying and becoming professionals rather than doctors. Encourage corporations to start mentor programs for the poor.
I think that, on the one hand, this is very true.
On the other hand, these beliefs and attitudes didn't grow out of nowhere. They're directly related to the circumstances these people (including me) grew up in, and they're useful attitudes, even survival mechanisms. I'm learning to cope with them and work around them myself, but if I had never had them, there are times in the past that stress would have pretty literally driven me insane.
A friend of mine didn't go to college. Incredible talented singer, wanted to go into music of some sort, applied to one extremely competitive program. No one else in her family had ever gone to college, and the osmotic knowledge from all of the rest of her friends wasn't enough to convince her to apply to the more usual six schools. She just didn't know that applying to one school only was a bad idea, and by the time we found out and convinced her, it was past the deadline.
I come up against rule changes a lot. A great deal of my social awkwardness has been due to observing old rules rather than new. Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to get an IRA. Not very hard, but... I need a script. All the financial advice I've seen, even from places like Get Rich Slowly, begins with "when you're talking to your banker" and I am up against the wall of "you're twenty-three. You aren't allowed to have a banker. People Like Us don't have bankers, and they will look down on you if you ask for help." This is stupid and irrational and has been going on for half a year.
I'm assuming you have a bank account.
I bank with WaMu so this will be referential to them but I'm pretty sure BofA and Wells Fargo and similar banks will have the same things.
Go in there and find their pamphlets. They'll have one marked IRA, which will talk about their IRA options. There are several. They can be confusing. They will say in the pamphlet that you should talk to one of their bankers. Now look around the lobby. One side of the bank has tellers. The other side has desks with words like "new accounts" or "loans" on tags or signs over them. One of them will say "retirement." That's your banker. Make an appointment to talk to that person.
Your age will help you here. Your banker will automatically assume you know nothing. It also does not hurt to say you know nothing. A lot of people are just fine with that because it means you have no wrong ideas and they don't have to skip around the parts you do know. These people are average folks just like you whose job it is to educate you so you can make good decisions later. They will not look down on you.
Another thing you can do is go find some books to read on the subject. I am entirely self-educated on finances because I don't want to be poor the rest of my life. Suze Orman's books are useful. The Nine Steps to Financial Freedom is one I'd recommend to you. It discusses IRAs, savings, and more and it will tell you what bankers do. Orman herself was a poor waitress before she became a financial advisor so she knows how to talk to people who didn't grow up with money coming out their ears. You might be able to get part of your script from there.
In the end, though, it comes down to taking a deep breath and jumping into script change. It's really freaky, but let me tell you, it's worth it. Living in a nice house with internet access beats living in a car any day. :)
"I think that poor folks who are raised to see money will probably be richer than their peers, and have a much better chance at escaping generational poverty.
The problem? Almost nobody in their peer group can teach them how to see it."
I think few truer words have been spoken. I was raised in a lower middle-class family. I have long held aspirations of owning my own business. (I have this idea for opening a twenty four hour coffee shop and cyber cafe in my local college area, where there is a severe dearth of such services.) My issue has always been a lack of idea on how to generate capital.
I know people do it. Small, independent businesses spring up regularly. But, with my credit in ruins (due to a pretty severely misspent youth.) and a lack of knowledge of how to access liquidity, I frequently feel that all I am going to be doing for the rest of my life is living hand-to-mouth.
When you are lower class, you are told that hard work, on its' own will lift you up, but most people quickly learn that is a lie. a minimum wage job will rarely, if ever, turn into something more lucrative. You don't normally have access to, or the respect of, the seats of power, therefore your success is curtailed.
Really, the only hope to bettering one's circumstances is to change one's attitudes and outlooks concerning money and personal fiscal responsibility. We're never taught how to do that, and it's not like there's an old man on the mountain to go see who can give most lower class people the kick in the ass they so desperately need, so where does one turn?
Another problem is not just marketing, but a cultural attitude towards rampant consumerism. a lot of folks feel that they are less of a person if they don't have that next gen console, or the Escalade, or whatever your status symbol of choice is. Therefore, folks will go to ridiculous ends to acquire those things, with little regard to what it does to them in the long term. This culture of flash in the pan, instant gratification has subsumed a far healthier attitude of personal responsibility and that, to me, is troubling.
I agree, the country in general needs a reality check when it comes to wealth and success. I do however, think that the government is the wrong "person" to be giving that talk.
Edited at 2008-01-03 05:30 pm (UTC)
I do however, think that the government is the wrong "person" to be giving that talk.
Probably. But given that corporations, the other alternative, would have zero incentive to encourage it, they're the only man on the spot.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/7319929/170067) | | From: | cofax7 |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 05:33 pm (UTC) |
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I think it's worthwhile here posting this link; Kaigou has a lot of interesting stuff to say that intersects with what you're saying here, speaking about the experience of living poor and how that shapes your responses and expectations. It's an awesome essay and well-worth reading.
My family has a pretty decent history of poverty. My dad got lucky (it was pure luck and he's the first to admit that), and my parents are now quite well-off.
I think maybe part of my problem (I have trouble finding new jobs, I have a Bachelor's of Science Degree but I make less money than people on unemployment) is that I wasn't raised with a great mentality toward money. As far as I know, my family had no savings until luck came floating our way. I'm starting to work toward making some things happen for myself (getting a Master's in Education, teachers aren't rich but they're a hell of a lot closer to it than I am).
I think I'm like a half-memtic transfer. I got vague ideas from friends in college and from my husband (who comes from money, but does not have much himself), but I didn't grow up with them.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/16767912/115843) | | From: | zane314 |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 06:11 pm (UTC) |
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My grandpa was the son of farmers. He ended up the VP of Hughes.
One of my life goals is "Make as much money working as he makes retired."
I've always been amused at different people's attitudes towards success- there are some people that will inevitably go up in class, there are some people that will inevitably go down in class, there are some people that will stay the same.
I'm fairly sure that my dad and I are in the economic class we are only because we had my grandpa leading the way, paying for college and lessons and such. We're both doing well, but we're both "stay in the class you were in" people at heart. We got lucky. My grandpa, however, was somebody who wasn't happy where he was, and worked his way up.
I grew up poor and have been homeless (aka living in a car) before. Plus I'm a college student and study class issues, race, and poverty. I am not in the middle class (still).
What struck me the most in my studies is two things: people who grow up poor often have dreams of making it big, but they also often know they will be a uniformed employee. "I want to be a Pulitzer-prize-winning journalist, but I will be a bus driver." That kind of thing. I am not saying they can't or couldn't be journalists, but that's what they self-report on dreams and career goals.
And something else I noted from my own experience. Poor children watch their parents and their parent's friends and neighbors. They learn about educational opportunities from those people. My dad was a lumberjack and my mom is a teacher. Their friends were secretaries, laborers, and so forth. I grew up knowing waitresses, nurses, cops, teachers, and other people who worked in institutions that aren't necessarily paid well and which (often) have a distinctive form of dress, so those were the professions I learned the most about.
My boyfriend, in contrast, grew up privileged middle-class. His father was a city planner. When I met him I didn't even know what a city planner was. My boyfriend was exposed to his father's friends, who all had jobs which required business attire - clothes you can't tell what the person does for a living in. He grew up with the awareness that there were a lot of jobs out there that involved doing things that weren't apparent, which meant skill/knowledge was more important than task.
We are equally educated, or I am slightly better educated than he is. I am a good secretary and he is a good graphic artist. He wants to work on the staff of a diplomat. I want to be a teacher. I think in part I want to be a teacher because I know what a teacher is. It would never have occurred to me to think about working on a diplomat's staff, though I could do such a thing. So now I am starting to revamp my ideas about careers. I want to work in education, and perhaps being a teacher is not best for me. So what else could I do that would best utilize my skills?
That last sentence is the question people who grow up in generational poverty or in seriously economically depressed areas (like my hometown) don't often ask. You get the job they give you and you try like hard to keep it. You don't think about what skills you have and of finding or creating work around those skills. The whole thing - the environment, the mindset, all of it - is a trap and it is very hard to escape from. After living with my bf for 8 years he is still middle-class and I am still lower-class. In part this is because my world view is more limited than his. I am interested in survival, then growth. He assumes he will survive, so all his energy is directed toward growth. If I want to succeed not only do I need to think like he does, I have to learn that thinking like he does is possible.
There's a lot more, involving race and politics and economics, but that's too much to go into in someone's comments.
BTW anyone who owns a house that's not completely paid for should have a life insurance policy. It is not at all paranoia, it's good economic sense. If Gini doesn't have one as well, you should get one for her. Where would you be financially if she died?
Last - comments about Darfur and such are all fine and dandy, but you write for an audience primarily composed of Americans and folks from other English speaking countries. Aside from India, all of those countries are stuffed full of people who are the most fortunate in the world. It's not your fault you write for that audience, and you should not be chastised for failing to take into account the people in Darfur when you write. It's not ethnocentric to write about what you know (ie this society) to an audience you assume will have the same basic frame of reference.
Edited at 2008-01-03 06:32 pm (UTC)
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/29976863/4772813) | | | Education and economic success | (Link) |
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I've been thinking about these frames of reference for a while especially when it comes to education and success.
Out of all the different ethnicities and cultures to immigrate to the United States: There have been two that rose through the economic ranks very rapidly. Those are my ancestors (Jews) and more recently people from Asian countries and cultures. I've wondered about this for a while and think the answer lies in those groups have traditionally placed high value on education and literacy.
My great-grandparents were came from the Pale of Settlement. They largely worked as tailors in the Garment District. 3 of my grandparents had university degrees. 2 went on to graduate school. Both my parents completed graduate/professional school and my brother and I will do the same. I'll probably have two graudate degrees. The same can be said for Asian immigrants. The immigrant parents make sure their children go to college.
However there are still lots of people whose families have been here for much longer and still have no college graduates. I think this happens because they don't come from cultures and backgrounds where education is respected. It might be seen as something for the elite and have less than a masculine air. Or some groups that came around a comparable time are just starting to send their progeny to college. And even that tends to be women only. The sons still tend to go into the family construction buisness or something like that.
It seems to me that getting a college education or higher is the most likely way to get into the middle and upper-middle classes. There are a few exceptions but college grads mainly make more money than people with high school diplomas. However there has always been a large streak of anti-Intellectualism in the United States and there are still lots of people out there with little respect for education and learning.
You pointed out another interesting problem. People are more likely to stick with their socio-economic class. Couples like you and your boyfriend or your parents are increasingly rare in the United States. And they barely ever existed in other countries like England.
I'm one of those people who has always had expectations of earning a middle-class income placed on me, but I've always shunned it because I fear the responsibility. One of the few reasons why I'm willing to go to therapy and try to get better is because I think it would be somehow a big insult to those with more hardship than me to not even try. Like if I reject the resources available to me and slip into chronic unemployment and debt, that would be a big slap in the face to those who never had the opportunities that I had.
But that's maybe more about how mental illness can affect wealth than what you're talking about.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/28855208/6824062) | | From: | orts |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 06:54 pm (UTC) |
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I disagree with the notion that poor people don't have people to teach them how to dowse for money; it's just that the poor people who are successful at doing that are beyond the pale: dealing drugs, hustling in other ways (stems from the criminalization of poverty and all that). Even playing the cruel welfare system is a lot of work. To successfully live outside the law you've got to work pretty hard.
What I want to suggest, stemming from Ferret's original comment about the power of examples, is that there needs to be more connection between the various strata of society. This says to me not that we're poor because we don't know how to hustle; we're poor because we can't get beyond the borders between castes (which we will soon have to admit we have as much as any other culture); and we're poor because we don't look out for each other. Mutual aid, people.
I also want to agree here with the comments above that even people who are "successful" have really strange ideas about what constitutes wealth and the proper things to do with it.
Sounds like you've met my second brother, who worked an entry level job for over 20 years and never once tried to get ahead, because you know his big acting break was always just around the corner.
And then he switched to a half time entry level job so he could go to auditions.
If he were a big name actor, or even a steadily employed actor, I'd tell you his name.
As someone who's going into the performing business, I can sort of sympathize with him, but I would think if I got rejected for 20 years I would have the good sense to just give up and set up a private voice studio, where I know I could make good money. XD
Or, as a friend of mine once said (long ago): "People aren't Republicans because they're rich, they're rich because they're Republicans."
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/28855208/6824062) | | From: | orts |
| Date: | January 3rd, 2008 09:41 pm (UTC) |
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Indeed. As Mussolini put it, "co-operation between the corporations and the state is the essence of Fascism."
I'm really glad you wrote this. I found it beneficial, like in "a new door opened in my mind" kind of way.
I grew up in what felt like the middle class. My father was a small businessman and my mother was a nurse. They pulled in some pretty good money.
They also spent way too much of it. Anything they wanted, they got.
Part of my father's job was supposed to be helping others plan for the future. He was apparently really good at selling other people on those ideas, and not always that great at applying them himself. To be fair, he probably thought he had a lot more than 57 years to take care of everything. But you play the hand you're dealt, and 57 was all he got. His debt when he died was massive.
We didn't know the things we needed to know until it was almost too late. We didn't know that if the credit card only had his name on it, then we were to refer those nasty creditors to The Estate. Mom paid a ton of money out to those bastards because they hounded her on the phone until she was scared she was going to lose the house or something. I'm sure THEY knew they weren't entitled to her money, but she didn't know it until we were referred to a good lawyer.
So yeah, everyone needs someone to explain things to them, because these things aren't intuitively obvious (especially when you're grieving and afraid), and there are scumbuckets everywhere who will take advantage of your ignorance for their own gain (speaking of people who see money everywhere...).
I grew up with a lot of privilege, but I didn't know what went into creating my lifestyle. I got a job after my seventh grade year, but it wasn't an office job, it was a greasy spoon job. It never occurred to me to beg Dad for a job in his office, and it never occurred to me to look elsewhere for a higher class and higher paying job. I was proud to have a job at all, and my parents were proud of me for getting it. I was never taught ambition, I was taught "be grateful for what you have and try not to lose it." My parents did a smashing job teaching me how to be a good citizen, how to be a good driver, how to get As in school, how to play musical instruments, how to take care of a lawn, etc, but they failed to instill in me any good sense about money, like how to earn a lot of it, how to take care of it, and how to grow it.
There are people trying to make a difference. For example, in a local community college (and I believe it is a nationwide organization) there is a program called Trio. As far as I understand it, the group is designed expressly for helping lower class students learn how to fit in with the higher classes. It is only open to students who meet certain requirements (parents didn't graduate college, ethnic qualifications, etc), and they assist with tutoring and other activities that are designed to improve their members' skills when it comes to fitting in with those raised in another stratum. They take field trips to museums or shows and have even sponsored banquets to teach proper table etiquette ("That's the fork I knew!").
But there are not enough of these types of organizations around and their ability to help is limited by the people working there. Without going into details, I can say that if their staffing (at least locally) doesn't get an upgrade, the kids they're "mentoring" aren't going to get the knowledge that they need. Employing people who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps sounds good in theory, but if they're just hanging in that higher class by the skin of their teeth, they're NOT the best candidate for teaching the rules to others.
Anyway, thanks for writing this. You have inspired me to take a good hard look at what I'm doing to better my situation. |
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