The Watchtower of Destruction: The Ferrett's Journal - Infidelity: A Deeper Analysis of the Desperate Housewife (or -Husband)
October 24th, 2007
11:43 am

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Infidelity: A Deeper Analysis of the Desperate Housewife (or -Husband)

In my last discussion of infidelity, I outlined the four basic types of cheaters. Of that, there were only two who you could really hope to have a relationship with:

  • The Wild Oat-Sower, who cheats to see whether something’s as good as they thought it was (and then, their curiosity satisfied, doesn’t do it again), and:
  • The Desperate Housewife, who’s cheating because you’re doing something that’s making them miserable. Hence, they’re going elsewhere to fulfill the needs that you’re not satisfying.

I also said that when caught, the Desperate Housewife – who, despite the name, can also be a guy – will almost invariably claim that they were just working something out of their system.

But why is that? Why will these unhappy partners lie and tell you that it’s not you, it’s something they’re going through and they need to work it out? Wouldn’t it be better just to talk to you about the shit they’re going through and maybe clear it up?

The reason’s simple: Desperate Housewife cheating happens in an environment where your lover feels they’ll be punished for being honest.

If a Desperate Housewife could tell you about what was really bothering them in a way where they felt like you could listen, then they wouldn’t cheat. (They might have sex with someone else with your permission, but contrary to some popular beliefs, that’s not cheating.) But now, if they tell the truth, they’re going to get into a big long argument where they won’t be heard at all. It’s quicker to cheat.

Yes, the Desperate Housewife is a sign that your relationship has degenerated to the point where your partner now views you as an obstacle to be worked around. Your partner still loves you – otherwise they’d be out the door* -

This may not be your fault.

You could, for example, be committing the crime of “Not being the ex-girlfriend he’s hung up on,” and talking to you about how you’re really not her will just make you feel bad and cause a lot of crying. So since that’ll never change and he’s not quite ready to leave you, he’s just not going to mention how he’ll jump her if he gets the chance. Really, there’s nothing you can do.

Or perhaps you are guilty of “Unable to tell her exactly what she should do with her life right now, and she doesn’t know.” Your wife’s suddenly decided that everything in her life is wrong; she’s not satisfied with her husband or her career or her family or her hobbies. She’s drifted passively through life until now, agreeing quietly with everything people said, but a few months ago she realized that this wasn’t working.

Now she doesn’t know what will make her happy, and she’s quietly angry all the time because somebody should hand her a paper slip containing the magic words that will give her a life of fulfillment, and nobody has. Everything you suggest is complete crap that she knows won’t work – she knows it so thoroughly that she won’t even try it.

As her husband, you should be the one who knows what the hell she wants – or are you part of the problem? Hmm? Maybe?

That’s a no-win situation.

Or you might be condemned to, “Not wanting to watch your husband screw every woman in town until he’s had all of the fun he wants.” Or “Unable to agree with everything your girlfriend says.”

Some Desperate Housewives desire things that are completely unreasonable. In many cases, what they want is something that you shouldn’t provide – they probably should be punished for being honest, since what they're asking you to do isn't something that should be granted. And as is often the case with dysfunctional relationships, there’s really not that much common ground to work with once you clear away that dry brush. What would make your partner happy would make you miserable, so there’s no real room for negotiation.

But remember when I said that when caught, almost every Desperate Housewife will claim to be a Wild Oat-Sower? Here’s the corollary:

When a Desperate Housewife is caught, almost every partner claims that they’re doing everything that their partner can reasonably expect, whether they actually are or not.

The partner of a Desperate Housewife will almost always admit that yes, there are problems, but on the whole he’s been doing everything he should be doing. He’s been kind, communicative, understanding – it’s her that’s the problem. This is understandable. The “solvable” Desperate Housewives (the ones where they have problems that can be addressed) are generally caused by communication locks, where the cheatee feels like she’s listening properly and the cheater knows he isn’t.

What happens is often subtle; the cheatee is suppressing vital communication in some quiet way that he or she may not be aware of. Lemme give you a real-life example here to clarify things.

In a long-term relationship with an old girlfriend, I was kind, sensitive, and loving. I took care of her emotionally, I brought her flowers, I picked her up from her job, and I was an awesome boyfriend.

She cheated on me.

This was sadly common in my LTRs. Most of my girlfriends cheated on me.* And it was a surprisingly long time before I discovered the common denominator in my crappy relationships was me.

What was I doing? It was surprisingly subtle. I kept asking, “Do you love me?” (or that eternal variant, “Are we okay?”). And I didn’t just ask it once a day – oh, no, sometimes I’d ask it a couple of times an hour.

I was a good boyfriend, on many levels. If you were to ask me, I was doing what I was supposed to do, and if I was a little needy at times, well, my other fine qualities made up for it. But realistically, I was suppressing communication constantly.

How? Well, every time I asked “Are we okay?”, I was accomplishing two things. Quite obviously, being asked all the time is fucking annoying, so I was endlessly nagging. But on the other hand, every partner has their quirks, and I might have found someone who was willing to reassure me a lot.

The larger problem was that we had to be okay. If my partner was upset or just irritated, telling me that they weren’t okay would lead to an instant Serious Discussion of What Was Wrong, which would not end until we were okay once again. Basically, any conflict, no matter how slight, had to be ironed out immediately for my convenience – I couldn’t live with my girlfriends being mad at me at all.

Sometimes, people just need time to cool off. (Or you don’t want to get into an argument now, because this movie’s really good.) By continually demanding that everything was okay at the very moment I asked it, I was lowering the bar on “okay.” In order to live with me, any girlfriend had to quietly redefine “trivial, but not worth discussing now” as “Okay.”

In this fashion, I taught them to lie to me. I was practically asking for it.

But wait! There’s more! If they didn’t want to discuss it right then, they couldn’t argue about it later – because then I’d realize that they had lied to me when they’d told me we were fine half an hour ago, and how could I know whether they had really meant that okay? The argument now would be that much bigger. So if they didn’t bring up the trivial stuff instantly, on my terms, they couldn’t bring it up at all without a huge fight that questioned their honesty.

They stopped talking to me about the trivial stuff. And the funny thing about trivial stuff is that it almost invariably chains into major stuff… But how could they discuss the major stuff that had sprung from the trivial stuff without having to justify all the quiet lies they’d told to me along the way?

In fact, they couldn’t talk to me at all. I was still a great guy, but there was this no-fly zone of non-communication. And hence, they would eventually find a guy who didn’t ask them stupid shit all the time, and by God was he attractive.

They didn’t leave me. They still liked me. But the other guy was like a vacation, or perhaps a pressure valve. He provided something I couldn’t – you know, confidence.

And so my communication patterns broke down. But if you were to ask me, I was doing everything that I was supposed to in order to keep things moving – in fact, my negative was a positive. I was always asking for feedback! I wanted open communication! Why did all of my girlfriends lie to me? By God, they were all Kobayashi Marus. You couldn’t win with them. Sure, I was flawed, but those were minor; on the whole, I was doing everything I should.

Thus, the big question in any future relationship with a cheater is, “What are you doing wrong?” It sounds ludicrous to ask this after a partner’s wounded you so thoroughly, but chances are better than even that they didn’t just do this out of evil intentions.

You might be partially at fault for this. To find out, in the next segment of this ongoing series, I’ll outline the various types of Desperate Housewives that I’ve seen, both male and female.

Stay tuned.

* - Or a Tarzan Cheater, as outlined in the previous essay.

** - And I on them, but I’ve chronicled that in the past.

Tags: ,

(Tell me I'm full of it)

Comments
 
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From:[info]m2c
Date:October 24th, 2007 03:54 pm (UTC)
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So far, that's been the hardest lesson I've had to learn- every girl I've seriously dated has cheated on me, almost always with the exact same type of guy... which points to the problem being with me.

Fantastic series so far, can't wait for the rest.
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From:[info]crystalsage
Date:October 24th, 2007 03:54 pm (UTC)
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Once, again, with these posts, you've really given me something to think about. Being on both ends of this situatioin, its a good insight into the thought processes. Thanks. :)
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From:[info]akaspeedo
Date:October 24th, 2007 04:04 pm (UTC)
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Your analysis of pseudo-communication is great. I've often gound myself in situations where someone says they want to talk about things and yet in just that way that no communication is possible, and if you try to tell them *that,* look out.
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From:[info]lamistressa
Date:October 24th, 2007 04:11 pm (UTC)
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This series is genius.

I honestly think you should have it etched into marble or granite somewhere and placed as a public monument, so people can read them and reflect, or bang their heads against the tablets when they have yet again failed to recognize these things.
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From:[info]the_xtina
Date:October 24th, 2007 04:17 pm (UTC)
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I need more coffee or a Greasemonkey script that allows me to turn all he/she/him/her words to they/them.  I could only barely follow the hypotheticals.  Thank god for the concrete example afters.

In many cases, what they want is something that you shouldn’t provide – they probably should be punished for being honest, since what they're asking you to do isn't something that should be granted.

I don't entirely agree with this, in the fuzzy feel-good sort of way.  If someone wants something that's irrational or thoroughly unreasonable, I don't think they should be punished for being honest.  I would rather they tell me, even if it's a daft thing they want, because then I can explain how it's daft and hopefully they can get past that.  If they can't (thoroughly unreasonable), then I can leave, which is only a punishment to them if one looks at it weirdly.

I may have to wake up more to articulate this better.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:October 24th, 2007 04:26 pm (UTC)
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Sorry: I would rather they tell me, even if it's a daft thing they want, because then I can explain how it's daft and hopefully they can get past that.

In that case, they're then punished by:

a) A long argument, involving being told how they're daft, and:
b) Probably not getting what they want.

You can try to phrase that in terms of "Gosh, that's not punishment!" - but to them, it is. They can't say what they want without enduring both tedious discussions and not getting their goal.

Frankly, they should have tedious discussions. But that's not a positive thing. Nobody likes arguments and/or drawn-out debates. But by being honest, now they're in a big discussion that they don't want to have, and that's a feedback loop that's at least partially negative.

The feedback loop is a necessary thing, generally. But just because they admit that thinking you're a total asshole doesn't mean that you're suddenly going to go, "Oh, really? Awesome. Have some sex as a reward for your honesty."

(Sorry for the repost.)
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From:[info]the_xtina
Date:October 24th, 2007 04:35 pm (UTC)
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(No worries.)

That's a fair point.  I was thinking of it more from (a) my end (b) Fuzzylandia.
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From:[info]dubheach
Date:October 24th, 2007 04:35 pm (UTC)
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You've given me a lot to think about here that I'd rather not...because it's easier. My problem is that when I am honest about why he's doing something that bothers me is that he always manages to convince me that it's MY fault for not communicating my problems well enough when he wanted to listen.

My head hurts. Please keep the series up, it gives me hope that the light at the end of the tunnel may not be a Bullet train.
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From:[info]mamculuna
Date:October 24th, 2007 04:38 pm (UTC)
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I was a Deperate Housewife in my first marriage, and not a cheater at all in my second (we both know we need monogamy! And can admit it).

At the time of my first marriage, all I could see was what I wasn't getting from him, and how I couldn't communicate it to him.

Now I think that a very big problem also was my inability to really understand what he needed, and why he couldn't tell me. If I could rewind and play that one again, I'd start there.

But at the time, all I could see was myself.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:October 24th, 2007 11:13 pm (UTC)
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That's generally the case.
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From:[info]kellirose1313
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:10 pm (UTC)
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I'm in the middle of a Desperate Housewife situation myself right now. THe problem is apparantly we BOTH had the "need to be filled elsewhere" from a lack of communication. Right now there's some serious hell going on on all sides, but I'm hoping being that we're now aware it can be gotten through.
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From:[info]jeffpalmatier
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:13 pm (UTC)
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The larger problem was that we had to be okay. If my partner was upset or just irritated, telling me that they weren’t okay would lead to an instant Serious Discussion of What Was Wrong, which would not end until we were okay once again. Basically, any conflict, no matter how slight, had to be ironed out immediately for my convenience – I couldn’t live with my girlfriends being mad at me at all.

I've heard of/experienced situations firsthand where some people manipulate others into a corner where they have to say/do what the manipulator wants or they have to face this big brouhaha from the manipulator. What happens is that people stop talking to this kind of person because they don't want to tell the person what they're being manipulated into saying and they don't want to get yelled at/face a brouhaha.

I once had a boss who would get shitty with people at a drop of a hat. And if you tried explaining your side of the situation about what he was yelling at you about, and/or that you didn't like him getting shitty with you, then this boss would get even madder and it would make the situation worse. So me and my fellow employees realized that the price of being on good terms with him was taking his shit. We didn't want to put up with his pissy behavior, and pretend like everything was fine, but we didn't want to make the situation worse by confronting him either, so we just stopped talking to him. And he went around with this long face, totally perplexed and hurt because everybody at work had stopped talking to him. He couldn't see that he had forced people into a situation where they didn't have any choice but to take the lesser of the two evils and just stop talking to him.

I've known other people who do this. They just want to hear what they want to hear and don't give others any other choice. Well, a lot of people in the world are not willing to give into them, and they resent having to face the possibility of having to deal with a big blow up if they do speak their mind.
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From:[info]jenk
Date:October 24th, 2007 06:32 pm (UTC)
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Not to mention that sometimes one is just irritated or upset or un-okay in general, which may have nothing to do with the relationship. Getting nagged for reassurance that things are okay when nursing a sore knee or blinded by a migraine would result in a HUGE blowup from me of the "Leave Me the Fuck Alone Asshole Why Can't You Grow Up for God's Sake" sort.
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From:[info]sneakingyoda
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:16 pm (UTC)
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So, just to clarify. The girls who cheated on you because you kept asking them if things were ok, they are "Desperate House Wives?"

See, I've been reflecting over this trying to figure out where my x-fiance and I went wrong. He cheated on me, and couldn't tell me about it. (If he told me, I don't think I would of left him- I would of tried to work it out. Listen.) After he cheated on me he went in a a circle of self loathing that left me completely befuddled and confused. He went to the guy who I wanted to marry and love to the guy who was- well... a jerk. Full blown alcoholic. I knew something was wrong- but he wouldn't really tell me. It became about the sex (all of a sudden). We talked about how we enjoyed sex. I wanted to be a good partner for him, so if he had something he wanted to do- if he told me- we would spice things up. I don't like to think I had my head in the sand about our relationship. I thought our communication was strong. Our team work was strong.

Everything that I have ever thought was a good, strong and healthy.

Literally his life was a lot better in our relationship then out of it. He cheated on me, and then couldn't tell me- was a huge jerk to me after without telling me why. (I think he wanted me to be the one who left him.) I endured three painful months trying to figure out the crisis in him when he finally left me. Three months later he breaks into his foster brothers house (and best friend) steals a n64 and some dvds, throws some knives into the wall and sets off a fire extinguisher. Then when the police catch up to him, he denies it. Six months later he comes back and tells me the truth about the cheating and the robbery. 1 year later I see him and he's doing lines of coke (by his own confession) and tells me he wants to take a bullet to the brain because the happiest he ever was, was when he was with me. He tells me that he has it all planned out. I was seriously offended and angry that he would -ever- put me even remotely into the situation where I would have to DEAL with that. He's failed to appear in court for his crime and (over the handful of times I saw him over the course of the year)I was left the difficult choice of leaving him the hell alone (even though he told me he was going to kill himself) OR calling the 1-800 number to get him committed. (And thus, once again, inserting myself or my choice into a situation where I didn't want to be exposed to him- or his life.)

... I just don't know. I can't seem to fit this scenario into any of the ones you described. Personally? I'm sad for not recognizing the signs of depression. Couldn't there be a sort of "self loathing" cheater? The kind of person who is just "too happy" to be allowed, so they self defeat themselves? Or if there is a "secret self loathing" cheater sub section: Where does it all fit in?

Not to give you a sob story (just a through description for definition). I I just think perhaps there should be a mental/depression/drugged subcheating or type of cheater...

Or is that all Desperate House Wife?
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:31 pm (UTC)
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Literally his life was a lot better in our relationship than out of it.

By whose standards? Apparently, not his. That's kind of critical in understanding how this works out.

Honestly, that's the problem with a lot of relationships - Partner A goes, "This is perfect for her!" and Partner B goes, "Well, it's what I should want, but I don't. See ya."

There is the Desperate Housewife Crazy - people who consistently make the wrong choices. But at the same time, you have to be able to spot those people in advance, since they usually don't go crazy out of whole cloth; the signs are generally there, and overlooked because you love this person and it's going to work out.

Interestingly enough, this parallels exactly something I'm writing right now.
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From:[info]sneakingyoda
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:46 pm (UTC)
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Merrrmmmmm... I can't deny that I typed that. But even at the time of the break up he displayed and said that exact sentence.

I don't think (based off of the context of the conversation) he was trying to make me feel better by saying it. (in fact, it only made me feel worse.) Theater for my benefit? Not understanding what my partner needed? Very possible. I have considered these things.

So... by whose standards? His? Mine?

Where is the line of "what is a better life?"

In the end, I wanted him to be happy. Also, to say. "Literally his life was a lot better in our relationship than out of it." is not the same thing as saying "I was the best partner or life situation he could ever have." That simply isn't true.

His life was better. Bills got paid. He wasn't doing drugs. He was healthier. He smiled. He seemed happy (but was obviously miserable?)

Hmm... *ponder*
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:49 pm (UTC)
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If he was really happy, he would have stayed. One of the recurring themes in my journal as of late has been how astonishingly bad people are at predicting what will make them happy.

The key to understanding this is that he wasn't happy - it may have been the happiest he ever was, but it clearly wasn't enough to stop him from doing all of the other stupid shit. He may be one of those people where the grass is always greener - but regardless, "The happiest time in his life" was a situation that he actively fled.

Recognizing that actions speak a lot louder than words, what does that tell you about him?
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From:[info]sneakingyoda
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:58 pm (UTC)
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That there was little I could do to help him, because he was very unhappy. Murr...

Don't want to get distracted here though.

Was he a desperate house wife by this definition? or is there a subsection?
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From:[info]mightydoll
Date:October 24th, 2007 06:10 pm (UTC)
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well, it could tell me that his self-esteem is so low he doesn't think he DESERVES to be as happy as he is. That he faces a need to throw a wrench in the works so as to "normalize" his life into the one he expects.

Or it could tell me that he has untreated ADD and when things go smoothly he gets bored.
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From:[info]sneakingyoda
Date:October 24th, 2007 07:22 pm (UTC)
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Personally, I tend to think that it was something very similar to what you described. Still though- it isn't what was wrong with him (or me), just... which scenario is this? Thats my basic curious question.
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From:[info]jenk
Date:October 24th, 2007 06:35 pm (UTC)
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Sometimes people don't want to be happy. If their life works, they poke at it until it breaks.
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From:[info]fax_celestis
Date:October 24th, 2007 05:25 pm (UTC)
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OH HOLY CRAP I DO THAT.
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From:[info]clodia_risa
Date:October 24th, 2007 08:46 pm (UTC)
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I DITTO THIS RESPONSE. SELF REFLECTION STARTS...NOW.
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From:[info]old_hedwig
Date:October 24th, 2007 06:27 pm (UTC)
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The other problem with someone who asks "do you love me" "are we OK" all the time is that you should onely have to tell someone you love them so often (not sure about a number, but several times an hour is too much.) If I have told you I love you 35 times in the last 2 days, and am SHOWING it by how I live my life, and you STILL need to ask me every commercial break, it makes me wonder why I should even bother to answer if you aren't going to believe me.
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:October 24th, 2007 11:15 pm (UTC)
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Because you're not shwowing it in the proper way. Showing it to me by living your life? What's that?

For Gini, who was raised in a broken environment where people did crazy, stupid, irresponsible shit, love is paying the bills and cleaning up the kitchen. For me, where that sort of stuff was assumed, love is hearts and flowers and smoochies in the hallways.

Just 'cause you're showing love doesn't mean it's what the other person thinks of as love. All I'm sayin'.
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From:[info]ccr1138
Date:October 26th, 2007 02:21 am (UTC)
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Have you ever read "The Five Love Languages"?

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Love-Languages-Heartfelt-Commitment/dp/1881273156/ref=pd_bbs_2/105-0262892-8269261?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193364964&sr=8-2

Fantastic idea -- people express love in different ways (languages). My husband likes saying it constantly, plus he shows his love through service -- doing the dishes, etc. I, on the other hand, get annoyed by the constant declarations and smooches, and would rather have sex than clean dishes. Once we understood that, it helped quite a bit in understanding and meeting each other's needs.
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From:[info]rhapsody_98
Date:October 26th, 2007 03:16 am (UTC)
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This was a hard lesson to learn for us, too. He thought buying me stuff means I love you, when I'd rather have him say it. Consequently, I was poor and couldn't spend money, so I didn't love him. Kinda funny when we look back on it. Not so much then. *g*
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From:[info]orejen
Date:October 26th, 2007 04:02 pm (UTC)
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I should read that book. Thanks!
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From:[info]suckswhen
Date:October 24th, 2007 06:30 pm (UTC)
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this post makes me sad, but it's true. i don't understand cheating or unhappy relationships, but they happen all the time. i don't cheat, but if you're trying to stick it out for the long haul and you just can't work it out with anyone, i guess i could see why someone might go there.
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From:[info]phizzled
Date:October 24th, 2007 08:04 pm (UTC)
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I'm rather similar, I think. I usually go through the whole preamble at the beginning of relationships that explains that I absolutely have to know what's wrong at all times and how I can't sleep if I'm fighting with someone, but that's never enough to change She [that eternal She]. I try to mitigate the potential harms that come from my nature in relationships, but I know for a fact that it's not enough to prevent someone from feeling repressed in the same way.

Interesting thoughts, depressing thoughts. As before, A+ thread, will read again.
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From:[info]botia
Date:October 24th, 2007 08:25 pm (UTC)
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Seriously, I'd have taken the nagging over someone screaming at me daily, throwing objects across the room (large and small), telling me to shut up when I need to talk about a family member dying, and telling me I'm not allowed to have guests over.

My ex's standard telephone greeting, especially when he knew it was me calling (caller ID), was: "WHAT?!" or "WHAT DO YOU WANT?!"

From:(Anonymous)
Date:October 24th, 2007 08:33 pm (UTC)
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Ferrett, what made you realize your behavior was the cause of the problem?
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:October 24th, 2007 11:15 pm (UTC)
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Working it through with Gini and finally seeing her side of it.
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From:[info]jmfunnyface
Date:October 24th, 2007 08:51 pm (UTC)
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The "not being the ex girlfriend" is me. We were together for 7 years, and not once in those 7 years did he mention her beyond once or twice saying that he dated this hippie girl for 6 months, and he thought she was a drug addict. One day we were picking out furniture for our new house, and he's making plans to redesign our guest closet and the next he's cheating (he slept with her two days after said closet shopping).

To hear that this girl he dated for 6 months 15 years ago was "the one" is so odd to me. He never had anything nice to say about her. I just don't get it.
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From:[info]vvvexation
Date:October 25th, 2007 02:17 am (UTC)
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Could be he never talked about her because he didn't think he'd ever see her again and didn't want to dwell on the past even if he wasn't really over her. Or, could be he was trying to be over her, and just not succeeding. Or perhaps he couldn't stop himself from loving her even though he knew she was bad news, but at least was ashamed enough not to want to admit this.
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From:[info]jmfunnyface
Date:October 25th, 2007 02:34 am (UTC)
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I don't think I'll ever know. Even when I emailed her to ask her if he was seeing her, and she flipped on him, he still wouldn't admit to either of us what was going on. She and I had a 3 hour conversation about his insane ass two weeks ago (she didn't really know about me either. He told her I was some girl he casually date -nice). It just so odd. She was never even a drug addict. He made that up. She was 14, he was 18 (he's now almost 32), they dated for six months. I'm so creeped out that his "ideal woman" is this 14 year old image trapped in his mind.
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From:[info]chayatapa
Date:October 25th, 2007 06:53 am (UTC)
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"I'm so creeped out that his "ideal woman" is this 14 year old image trapped in his mind."

And why is that creepy?
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From:[info]callistra
Date:November 16th, 2007 12:23 pm (UTC)
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Because a 14 year old is not a woman, and so already there's a problem in suggesting she is an ideal woman image.


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From:[info]chayatapa
Date:November 16th, 2007 07:58 pm (UTC)
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How is a 14-year-old not a woman?

Most 14-year-olds are physically mature.

Most 14 year olds have reached adult-level cognitive capacity. In fact, some 14-year-olds are more cognitively advanced than some adults will ever be.

Some 14-year olds have more life experiences than some adults (thus, it's not universally true that 14-year-olds are more "naive" or "emotionally immature" than most adults).

Most 14-year-olds are indistinguishable from what any reasonable person would call a woman. Come up with any criteria *not based on age* that would identify the majority of adult women, and it will also identify a significant number of 14-year-old females.

Saying that a 14-year old female is not a woman is a political distinction, not a rational one.

Incidentally, it's also a harmful one. What do you think happens when you tell a fully competent human being that she is incompetent? What do you think happens when you "protect" a fully competent human being to the point where she never learns to take care of herself and is encouraged to rely on and submit to authority?

What would you call someone in any other circumstance who made arbitrary distinctions about a person based on an irrelevant criterion? If the criterion were sex ("women shouldn't be treated as competent adults") or race ("blacks shouldn't be treated as competent adults"), you'd call it bigotry.

It's no difference when the irrelevant criterion ("14-year-olds shouldn't be treated as competent adults")is age.
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From:[info]beckyzoole
Date:October 24th, 2007 08:54 pm (UTC)
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I had a problem with a relationship where the guy was sure I'd nag and be jealous, because his previous girlfriend nagged and was jealous. So he didn't communicate with me. After all, he was sure that if he communicated he'd just be punished with nagging and jealous fits.

It was mighty frustrating for me!
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From:[info]cynicalcleric
Date:October 24th, 2007 11:12 pm (UTC)
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Sometimes the hardest part of dealing with a person - relationship or even sometimes just friendship - is dealing with all the damage that's been done to them up to that point.
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From:[info]cynicalcleric
Date:October 24th, 2007 10:34 pm (UTC)
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I'm really enjoying this series.

Some of this discussion about cheating on a relationship is particularly interesting as it seems to have applications beyond that scope. For example, take this statement:

If a Desperate Housewife could tell you about what was really bothering them in a way where they felt like you could listen, then they wouldn’t cheat.

Now let me strike & replace a few things:

If a Desperate Housewife you could tell your friend/roomate about what was really bothering them you in a way where they you felt like you they could listen, then they you wouldn’t cheat bitch about them behind their back.

Interesting yes?
From:(Anonymous)
Date:October 25th, 2007 01:51 am (UTC)

....

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This has degraded from a functional thesis into a self-divulgent personal history, with only minimal in-depth analysis. Needs some editing if you want it published.
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From:[info]ccr1138
Date:October 26th, 2007 02:07 am (UTC)
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All VERY true. There are always two sides to every story, and nobody's perfect, so *of course* you are doing something wrong. Is it the *cause* of the infidelity? Maybe, maybe not. But getting the cheater to a place where she feels like analyzing her reasons and expressing them? Tough.

If a Desperate Housewife could tell you about what was really bothering them in a way where they felt like you could listen, then they wouldn’t cheat.

Precisely. In my case, although I don't cheat, sometimes I wish I could, because I have said, explicitly, multiple times over a 20-year period, exactly what I would like to see changed (in bed), but nothing happens, and nothing ever will. I know I'm beating my head against the wall, but that doesn't mean I've reconciled myself to my fate. Thus ... I'm both an optimist and depressed. :-)
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From:[info]nuala
Date:October 26th, 2007 11:46 am (UTC)
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...Your wife’s suddenly decided that everything in her life is wrong; she’s not satisfied with her husband or her career or her family or her hobbies... Now she doesn’t know what will make her happy, and she’s quietly angry all the time because somebody should hand her a paper slip containing the magic words that will give her a life of fulfillment, and nobody has... etc etc

My thoughts for the cheater:

1. Make YOURSELF happy. Don't rely on someone else to do it. Your partner should be supporting you in this, not ruling your emotions and telling you what to feel. Being with them should make you happy. If you aren't, then figure out why.

2. Find something new to fulfill you - a hobby, classes, new social group, or just seeing old friends more. Change is always good. Sometimes doing more things together with your partner resolves things. Sometimes finding yourself and doing things that make YOU happy are the way to go. Either way, hopefully it'll allow you to see your partner/relationship from a fresh/different angle as well. It's easy to take it out on those closest to us when we're indefinably unhappy.

4. Why cheat? Is it for the confidence boost? Do you have feelings for the person that you're cheating with - and would this dump you more firmly into the Tarzan category? What exactly are you missing from your relationship and will cheating really fix it? Know the real reason behind your actions. Denial isn't a river.

5. Stop blaming the person that you're with. Accept that YOU should be making you happy and do something about it. Be proactive and talk to your partner about what the problems are. Both of you got into this mess, both should be prepared to get you out. Be prepared also to accept that YOU may not be explaining things properly. Again, denial isn't a river and using the excuse of 'you never listen' could just be laziness.

Have respect for your partner (you cared about them once!) and yourself. Don't keep carrying on being miserable if neither of you are capable of working it out. It's ok to move on.

(PS Ferrett, you switched back and forth between male/female/cheater/cheatee a bit. I understand the need to stress that a DH could be male or female, I just found the examples a little confusing in places. Or maybe I'm just a lazy reader.)
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From:[info]mama_hogswatch
Date:October 29th, 2007 06:26 pm (UTC)
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This is REALLY good.

Could I link to it from the Polyamorous Misanthrope, or repost the text and a link?

(And no pressure. If you'd rather not, all cool! *grin* It's "okay"... REALLY)
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From:[info]theferrett
Date:October 29th, 2007 06:45 pm (UTC)
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Go right ahead! That's what it's meant for!
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